I have been on bup for over 11 years now. I started it when it first was released in 2003 and continued to this day. My does has not changed, except for the initially high induction does. I take 2x2.5mg a day. I did have to slightly adjust when the generics came up by uping from 2x2mg a day to 2x2.5mg a day because the generics seemed less powerful.
What's the longest anyone else out there has been on? How have you managed to stay on so long?
I went through 2 docs and an OTP before finding the best doc I have encountered in the industry. He is also my primary care now too, and he doesn't treat me like a criminal. I have never had a dirty urine so that might partially explain why I garner such respect from him.
In the beginning I went to a doctor that only accepted cash. He was a single doctor, no admin assistents, and actually saw patients in the basement of his personal home. Pretty unbelievable. He was really just in it for the money and after 18 months of seeing him he dumped me with no taper at all. A year later I saw he moved to California and now focuses on celebrity clients.
After I saw him, being desperate of course, I found another doc who initially claimed she didn't artificially set time limits on treatment. After being with her for 18 months, she too decided "it was now time for me to get off" and wanted to taper me. I tried that, and for a brief period w/o sub I felt an INTENSE urge to reuse. I cannot take Naloxone (e.g. Vivitrol) due to a severe allergic reaction that required steroid and epinephrin to treat when I first started taking (which is why they switched me early on to straight bup instead of the Sub).
After her I found an OTP program that started a new bup program. They were good, but as you can imagine, OTP is always filled with all lots of life, including people who don't want to be there. So, it was a monthly thing, random urines, treating you like you are a quasi-criminal, you all know the drill. Waiting 4 hours to see the "doc" because they don't schedule appts for individuals; so taking an entire afternoon off each month. They didn't accept insurance for that program (but did for their methadone program - go figure) so had to pay $300/month out of pocket for a 5 minute visit with the doctor squeezed in with many other patients.
At the OTP, they of course they had the "mandatory counseling" - with all due respect, that was completely ridiculous after the first year. After I had been on the program for many years they finally just gave up on that for me because I would sit there, over and over with the counselor saying "I know what you are going to tell me, how many times can we talk about not acting on my cravings, 12 steps, etc...-it got so awkward that the counselors and I would just talk about our family, kids, jobs, etc., internal politics of the office, you name it - ANYTHING accept for addiction stuff. Counseling is a complete waste of time once you are stable - it is just repeating what amounts to an almost awkward repeating of child-like talking points like "did you have any cravings this week - how do you feel about that?" Some people enjoy talking about this weekly - I would look at the glee of others when they made their appt. with the counselor. But there are two types of addicts in this world on bup: those that had a long life of down and out drug use, and those that had a bad go of life for whatever reason for few years but got hooked. I think the counseling works well for people that have lived a life since their teenage years of constant addiction; but for others who did build good life skills, a career, and have a very good support system - counseling is actually detrimental. I makes people relive the addiction and "bad years" over and over and never allows them to move on because they keeping talking about everything in the context of addiction years after they have recovered.
Finally, in the OTP program I found the doc I have now. They shutdown the program there (I suspect it was not generating sufficient profits) and the doc who was seeing the patients there already was a primary care physician. He took a group of patients that were very stable to his own practice and others found other programs and OTP facilities to continue their treatment. I only see this doctor now every 3 months and he provides 2 refills on each script. I do UA every time I see him (although he doesn't always ask, but while I am waiting in the waiting area I just go do the UA anyway just in case he does).
Its a joy going to a primary care setting to see him 4 times a year. For one, my annual physical is one of those visits. That means I am technically only making extra appointments 3 times a year - and on those visits I can get meds for other ailments (e.g. stomach issues, flu shots, etc) so it is a valuable visit from an overall health standpoint. I have been on this 11 years now, and plan to remain the rest of my life. I am tired of hearing the "you cannot stay on sub forever" people, including my own wife, because a) I know I will relapse if not on it, and b) how is it hurting anything?
People are on diabetic meds, blood pressure, antidepressants, stomach proton pump inhibitors, you name it, for life...why is it they are not arbitrarily told they need to "get off of their med" just "because"?
How long have people been on this (anyone past 11 years?) Does anyone see the pendullum shifting toward longer term maintenance/indefinite maintenance in the future - or do they see it swinging toward reducing time people are on it to less than 6 months again as it was back in 2003-2005?
How long is the longest patient out there?
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sublongtime
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lizzieshug2013
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I don't have an answer to your question about his long is the longest time a person had been on sub, however, I am concerned that because I plan to remain on it indefinitely, that I'll have to continuously find new doctors after each doctor makes the decision FOR me that is time to stop. I've been on sub for almost a year now, and have absolutely no complaints about any aspect of treatment or any side effects etc. But my current dr is already my third.
Here's why... The first one walked out of the practice, abandoning all his patients. The 2nd one,luckily, I found immediately,but turned into a nightmare. She ran a Saturday Suboxone clinic out of her urgent care practice, and even had a separate waiting room for addicted/ sub patients. She set arbitrary dose caps and time limits on treatment, and used cheap ua tests. One of my UAs showed 0 buprenorphine even though at the time I was taking 24mgs/day. She accused me outright of diverting my meds, going so far as to make me cry. I truly felt like a criminal whenever I went there fir my appointments. Once my urine was sent to an outside lab and I was proven innocent, I received no apology. I knew I had to find a new dr,and thankfully I did so quickly. I really like my new Dr, but however remain nervous that even though this program says that they do not force people to taper or stop that eventually,they will,and I'll be left to find yet another provider. I don't know which way the pendulum is swinging, but I hope it's headed in the direction of long term to life time treatment for those who choose to remain on buprenorphine or need to, to prevent a life threatening relapse! other people with life threatening ailments aren't worried about their medications being taken away in favor of religious or talk therapy and the like, to meet another person's ideal of recovery, so why should people with addictive disorders subject to such unjust fears? people's lives are at stake in many cases.
Here's why... The first one walked out of the practice, abandoning all his patients. The 2nd one,luckily, I found immediately,but turned into a nightmare. She ran a Saturday Suboxone clinic out of her urgent care practice, and even had a separate waiting room for addicted/ sub patients. She set arbitrary dose caps and time limits on treatment, and used cheap ua tests. One of my UAs showed 0 buprenorphine even though at the time I was taking 24mgs/day. She accused me outright of diverting my meds, going so far as to make me cry. I truly felt like a criminal whenever I went there fir my appointments. Once my urine was sent to an outside lab and I was proven innocent, I received no apology. I knew I had to find a new dr,and thankfully I did so quickly. I really like my new Dr, but however remain nervous that even though this program says that they do not force people to taper or stop that eventually,they will,and I'll be left to find yet another provider. I don't know which way the pendulum is swinging, but I hope it's headed in the direction of long term to life time treatment for those who choose to remain on buprenorphine or need to, to prevent a life threatening relapse! other people with life threatening ailments aren't worried about their medications being taken away in favor of religious or talk therapy and the like, to meet another person's ideal of recovery, so why should people with addictive disorders subject to such unjust fears? people's lives are at stake in many cases.
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Hey Sub,
I really liked your two types of addicts and counseling. I believe your right. Ive seen it many times in the clinic ive een in the 42 months.
Ive had one doc. He is a big pusher on 12 step. Wont hear how, after 6 monrhs to a year, most if not all subbbers dont eant or need a overhaul in life. So do. It takes three years to get to the upper group. No refills either..
My group has 4 females with 8 or 9 years. There fine. Some with 4 to 7 years. Luckly, there is NO pressure there to ever taper off.
And yes, ive had one argument after another with people snd hardcore steppers about this getting off crap.
After 42 months, ive left the group. Cant hear the message today. Sick of tbe judgemental tumping..
Congrats on 11 great years. It safes lives.Thats what it does. Saves...thanks for sharing your story. I think you may be the lougest runing subber ive heard of or from here..and ya haveca good set up with your dr too. .best of luck
Razor....
I really liked your two types of addicts and counseling. I believe your right. Ive seen it many times in the clinic ive een in the 42 months.
Ive had one doc. He is a big pusher on 12 step. Wont hear how, after 6 monrhs to a year, most if not all subbbers dont eant or need a overhaul in life. So do. It takes three years to get to the upper group. No refills either..
My group has 4 females with 8 or 9 years. There fine. Some with 4 to 7 years. Luckly, there is NO pressure there to ever taper off.
And yes, ive had one argument after another with people snd hardcore steppers about this getting off crap.
After 42 months, ive left the group. Cant hear the message today. Sick of tbe judgemental tumping..
Congrats on 11 great years. It safes lives.Thats what it does. Saves...thanks for sharing your story. I think you may be the lougest runing subber ive heard of or from here..and ya haveca good set up with your dr too. .best of luck
Razor....
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Romeo
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Before you, I think the longest I had ever heard of someone being on Suboxone was 9 years. 9 years or 11 years or 20 years, if it's working for you and keeping you clean and you're happy with it, stick with it.
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!
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lizzieshug2013
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Romeo said it perfectly. Nothing to add except that it should really be left up to the Dr and patient, mostly patient, how long to use suboxone/bupe. Being forced to taper or stop is nearly always a recipe for relapse. When and if a patient is ready, they just know,I've found. From what I've observed, most people who've chosen long term/life time treatment are in their 30s or older,highly motivated to do well in recovery, extremely compliant with their program, and have already tried many other avenues to recover without any real success, and have found bupe the most effective, and are generally well informed about their decision to do so, and report feeling and doing better in their lives than ever before, even prior to their addictions.
I've read tons of threads here in the last ten months,and I believe you're the longest on bupe I've heard of,btw. .. Good for you for sticking with what works and staying clean!
I've read tons of threads here in the last ten months,and I believe you're the longest on bupe I've heard of,btw. .. Good for you for sticking with what works and staying clean!
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tinydancer
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
My good friends have been on since 2003 as well. That's when I originally induced but didn't stick with it until 2006. Before 2003, it was Buprenex.
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I have only been on suboxone 2 yrs and 3 months but I'm sure that I don't have any problems taking my dose at 12 mg for as long as I want, even life. I have been forced to taper already from 16 to 12. My Dr doesn't listen, doesn't wanna hear anything I say. He writes in his file the whole two min I'm in his office once a month. I've never failed a urine screen, I pay 350 for my visit and 378 for my meds out of pocket every month. I say if I have no problems with it nobody else should either. I'm willing to do what I have to in order to live a happy life. Until I came to this forum, I was always made to feel like I was crazy for staying on subs to long. I didn't think anyone understood. This post was amazing, thank u so much cause now I realize, it's everyone's individual choice, I sure don't wanna be miserable off suboxone just because everyone around me thinks I'm procrastinating. Btw 11 yrs...awesome!!!!
Jennifer
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
HI there!
I have been on Suboxone since 2009 then got off of it in 2011 because my insurance stopped paying for it. then back on it again in 2013 because my insurance now pays for Zubsolv.
I have a great Group in Austin called POPPS. They have two offices and are open everyday at least one of the offices are open and they take walk-ins. They do not take insurance. AND they only charge $150 a month and that includes FREE counseling and optional counseling classes that you can attend throughout the month.
They are laid back and really nice there and treat you excellent.
There are always open to taking new patients. I really think it is worth the money. No complaints. I can only wish that they had more places like this over the country and in smaller cities.
I am planning on being on Sub forever.
I have been on Suboxone since 2009 then got off of it in 2011 because my insurance stopped paying for it. then back on it again in 2013 because my insurance now pays for Zubsolv.
I have a great Group in Austin called POPPS. They have two offices and are open everyday at least one of the offices are open and they take walk-ins. They do not take insurance. AND they only charge $150 a month and that includes FREE counseling and optional counseling classes that you can attend throughout the month.
They are laid back and really nice there and treat you excellent.
There are always open to taking new patients. I really think it is worth the money. No complaints. I can only wish that they had more places like this over the country and in smaller cities.
I am planning on being on Sub forever.
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I started sub on Jan 3 2004 and never looked back!!! So Ill be coming up to my 12yr anniversary. Out of the blue I just recently started thinking about quitting. Im only on 2mg and have been so for 6 yrs. I finally feel that My brain is reprogrammed. I've recently started to forget to take it before I leave for work. In the past I would freak out. I had no other option but to return home to take it. All of a sudden I will go the whole day before I realize that i forgot and I dont freak out either. I just wait till I get home and when I do its not the first thing that I do. I skipped 3 days in this cycle. Weird right??? Im still scared to quit. But I think this is a sign. My chance
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AdelineRose
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I find it so odd that methadone is deemed "okay" to be on for life but Suboxone is usually given an arbitrary time line that is "acceptable" or your doctor will one day refuse to see you anymore.
The last time I was trying to get sober I had almost 5 months clean when my doctor suddenly stated he was changing to prescribing diet pills and went from prescribing me 16mg to nothing over night. He basically said "This will be your last script, I won't be seeing you again taper yourself and you will be fine". WHAT? How was I supposed to successfully come off of 16 mg in a month never mind that I WASN'T READY to taper off. Urgh. I ended up relapsing after not being able to taper properly without supervison, any guidance, or adequate time.
This time around I found a doctor, a psychiatrist, and a counselor that I trust that all specialize in addiction and are all past of the same office so they all share their notes with each other and work as a team. In order to get to once a month visits I had to complete 2 counseling sessions but I have chosen to continue to go once or twice a month because I find that every time I see her I get something out of it and am one more step further in my recovery (9 months so far).
My counselor and my doctor have both asked me how long I plan to stay on Suboxone and I have told them I do not have a set time frame and that I am going to do what is best for ME. All three seem to respect my opinion and aren't forcing anything on me as of yet. I started off at 16 mg, cut to 8 mg, cut to 4 mg, and now take 3 mg (not forced to, just figured I would be on the lowest working dose if I plan to continue on it and will continue to lower my dose as I feel comfortable).
I don't think I will stay on Suboxone for life without taking any breaks since I have decided I won't get pregnant while taking Suboxone. I am already on Prosac for depression and serqual for bipolar disorder and I feel that is enough risk to an unborn child without adding Suboxone to the mix. Who is to say whether I will taper off for pregnancy and then go back once the baby is born though. I am taking it one step at a time, but I refuse to have a doctor that doesn't take me seriously and that would be a deal breaker for me.
Just like they can always get new clients, we can always get new doctors.
The last time I was trying to get sober I had almost 5 months clean when my doctor suddenly stated he was changing to prescribing diet pills and went from prescribing me 16mg to nothing over night. He basically said "This will be your last script, I won't be seeing you again taper yourself and you will be fine". WHAT? How was I supposed to successfully come off of 16 mg in a month never mind that I WASN'T READY to taper off. Urgh. I ended up relapsing after not being able to taper properly without supervison, any guidance, or adequate time.
This time around I found a doctor, a psychiatrist, and a counselor that I trust that all specialize in addiction and are all past of the same office so they all share their notes with each other and work as a team. In order to get to once a month visits I had to complete 2 counseling sessions but I have chosen to continue to go once or twice a month because I find that every time I see her I get something out of it and am one more step further in my recovery (9 months so far).
My counselor and my doctor have both asked me how long I plan to stay on Suboxone and I have told them I do not have a set time frame and that I am going to do what is best for ME. All three seem to respect my opinion and aren't forcing anything on me as of yet. I started off at 16 mg, cut to 8 mg, cut to 4 mg, and now take 3 mg (not forced to, just figured I would be on the lowest working dose if I plan to continue on it and will continue to lower my dose as I feel comfortable).
I don't think I will stay on Suboxone for life without taking any breaks since I have decided I won't get pregnant while taking Suboxone. I am already on Prosac for depression and serqual for bipolar disorder and I feel that is enough risk to an unborn child without adding Suboxone to the mix. Who is to say whether I will taper off for pregnancy and then go back once the baby is born though. I am taking it one step at a time, but I refuse to have a doctor that doesn't take me seriously and that would be a deal breaker for me.
Just like they can always get new clients, we can always get new doctors.
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willowwitch
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Good morning Adelinerose . See this is my biggest fear ! My Dr telling me I have to ween or just deciding not to prescribe anymore ! I have only been on subs for a couple of months now. I was sober 11 yrs on AA/NA and miserable. Finally relapsed and was out 6 long yrs on opiates. By the end my dose was very high and climbing daily. When I found suboxone it saved my life. So this is a fear I have that I am trying to deal with. My Dr is great actually but I think he is not on the same page as far as long term. So my hope is to show him some of Dr Junig's blog . He is very receptive to my input and feelings though. So I hope that my fear is just that. ....a fear. I can be a bit obsessive (go figure!) So sometimes I get fearful over nothing! Thanks for your posts. Have a great day!
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queenie1959
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Hi Willow
I think I mentioned it before. My doctor believes in long term treatment (well, at least for me he does) I don't know why Drs. are all different when it comes to Sub treatment. It shouldn't be that way. I think people should be treated by what they need, not but what the Dr. feels it should be. The thing is, how do we know how it should be? Some doctors put people on Subs and already have a plan as to when they will taper. Others start people at very high doses(like me, 32 mgs. others don't. Makes you wonder, what is the right way. I have been on subs 4 years. I see the Dr. every 6 months. He gives me refills, I am still on the sublingual. My insurance pays for everything. All I pay is $10 co-pay for the RX. I am at 8 mgs. and he is keeping me there. I have been on 8 mgs for about 2 years.
Well, I guess I will never understand all the different things that go into being on Subs and why Drs. are all different but, all I can say is, I hope everyone stays clean and I pray their Drs. don't walk out on them and leave them in a dangerous situation where they may use again. Be strong.
I love you,
Queenie
I think I mentioned it before. My doctor believes in long term treatment (well, at least for me he does) I don't know why Drs. are all different when it comes to Sub treatment. It shouldn't be that way. I think people should be treated by what they need, not but what the Dr. feels it should be. The thing is, how do we know how it should be? Some doctors put people on Subs and already have a plan as to when they will taper. Others start people at very high doses(like me, 32 mgs. others don't. Makes you wonder, what is the right way. I have been on subs 4 years. I see the Dr. every 6 months. He gives me refills, I am still on the sublingual. My insurance pays for everything. All I pay is $10 co-pay for the RX. I am at 8 mgs. and he is keeping me there. I have been on 8 mgs for about 2 years.
Well, I guess I will never understand all the different things that go into being on Subs and why Drs. are all different but, all I can say is, I hope everyone stays clean and I pray their Drs. don't walk out on them and leave them in a dangerous situation where they may use again. Be strong.
I love you,
Queenie
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willowwitch
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
HI Queenie! Great to hear from you. 
. Thanks for responding. I just get so worried some days! I know it's cause I have just started sobriety again and have a bad case of the "what ifs" . So this thread just got me obsessing. Lol. Not hard to do right now! I figure the best thing to do probably is talk to my Dr about my fear and feeling him out a bit on his way of doing things. Then if we disagree on what's best for me I can tell him what I would like (as for now atleast) and if he won't consider it I can continue with him and look for a different Dr in case I need to change. I am so happy for you that you insurance does so much. Unfortunately mine doesn't but I am in the process of applying for Medicaid and am fairly sure I will get it (I have Medicare now) . That would be such a blessing. Well I'm gonna go make some dinner. Have a great night!
Willow
. Thanks for responding. I just get so worried some days! I know it's cause I have just started sobriety again and have a bad case of the "what ifs" . So this thread just got me obsessing. Lol. Not hard to do right now! I figure the best thing to do probably is talk to my Dr about my fear and feeling him out a bit on his way of doing things. Then if we disagree on what's best for me I can tell him what I would like (as for now atleast) and if he won't consider it I can continue with him and look for a different Dr in case I need to change. I am so happy for you that you insurance does so much. Unfortunately mine doesn't but I am in the process of applying for Medicaid and am fairly sure I will get it (I have Medicare now) . That would be such a blessing. Well I'm gonna go make some dinner. Have a great night! Willow
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Hi Queenie, mind if I ask what kind of insurance you have. I am retired on SSDI so I get medicare with united health care as the secondary. It's okay but I'm always looking for better.
I have a great sub dox. He's so cool. He gives me whatever I feel I need and doesn't hassle me about anything. I'm on 6mg a day of subutex the pills w/out the nalox. I tried the films but I didn't like them so he just changed me to the pure bup.
I take 2mg three times a day, breakfast lunch and dinner. Seems to work and keep me happy. He also does not have to see me every month and when I saw him today, which was my 3rd visit he said he's see me in a couple of months and wrote for refills which is great. Save me the 35 dollar office co pay.
I did have a bit of a problem with the insurance not wanting to me to have refills so we'll see what happens when I cross that bridge. I don't understand insurance companies at all. Other than the fact that they don't like to pay for anything.
I asked my doc if at some point in the future they could make me wean off and made it clear to him that this drug is what keeps me alive and I have no desire to be forced off. He said sometimes the drug co's do try to cut people off but all he has to do is write something informing them that my life depends of it and that backs them off for awhile. Basically they can't cut you off even if they threaten to do so. If a doctor is telling them their patient needs the meds to stay alive it wouldn't look too good for them if they did actually drop them and the patient did actually die. Insurance companies are like huge cartels that will stop at nothing to improve the bottom line. Thankfully unlike cartels, most if not all of the fighting is done through the paperwork and legal system rather than the streets. Which more often than not comes out in our favor if one has the fortitude to fight the endless red tape from the big corporations. Getting good insurance is hard enough as it is. Those big companies stoop pretty low and it's shameful to say the least. They're like the cartels only instead of just plain shooting your ass dead in the street they toss your case work in a big long circular file and make it impossible to get a live person on the phone when you need them most.
Crazy world we live in.......that's for sure.......That said, I've been on subutex for 2 months now and it has changed my life. I was on methadone for about a year before that and I like the sub much better. It's a lighter drug so I don't feel so disconnected from my self not to mention the fact that I can actually take a crap every day unlike methadone that shut me down completely! Yeah, Suboxone takes care of my chronic pain. depression, and cravings for any other drugs which nothing has ever been able to stop that. Yay for Suboxone. The sides are worth the benifits so if I have to take them my whole life so be it. I've made it 60 years through the worst of times, I'm sure I an make it another 20 if I try!! all the best to yous and yours, megster
I have a great sub dox. He's so cool. He gives me whatever I feel I need and doesn't hassle me about anything. I'm on 6mg a day of subutex the pills w/out the nalox. I tried the films but I didn't like them so he just changed me to the pure bup.
I take 2mg three times a day, breakfast lunch and dinner. Seems to work and keep me happy. He also does not have to see me every month and when I saw him today, which was my 3rd visit he said he's see me in a couple of months and wrote for refills which is great. Save me the 35 dollar office co pay.
I did have a bit of a problem with the insurance not wanting to me to have refills so we'll see what happens when I cross that bridge. I don't understand insurance companies at all. Other than the fact that they don't like to pay for anything.
I asked my doc if at some point in the future they could make me wean off and made it clear to him that this drug is what keeps me alive and I have no desire to be forced off. He said sometimes the drug co's do try to cut people off but all he has to do is write something informing them that my life depends of it and that backs them off for awhile. Basically they can't cut you off even if they threaten to do so. If a doctor is telling them their patient needs the meds to stay alive it wouldn't look too good for them if they did actually drop them and the patient did actually die. Insurance companies are like huge cartels that will stop at nothing to improve the bottom line. Thankfully unlike cartels, most if not all of the fighting is done through the paperwork and legal system rather than the streets. Which more often than not comes out in our favor if one has the fortitude to fight the endless red tape from the big corporations. Getting good insurance is hard enough as it is. Those big companies stoop pretty low and it's shameful to say the least. They're like the cartels only instead of just plain shooting your ass dead in the street they toss your case work in a big long circular file and make it impossible to get a live person on the phone when you need them most.
Crazy world we live in.......that's for sure.......That said, I've been on subutex for 2 months now and it has changed my life. I was on methadone for about a year before that and I like the sub much better. It's a lighter drug so I don't feel so disconnected from my self not to mention the fact that I can actually take a crap every day unlike methadone that shut me down completely! Yeah, Suboxone takes care of my chronic pain. depression, and cravings for any other drugs which nothing has ever been able to stop that. Yay for Suboxone. The sides are worth the benifits so if I have to take them my whole life so be it. I've made it 60 years through the worst of times, I'm sure I an make it another 20 if I try!! all the best to yous and yours, megster
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Just read your post Sub. Excellent points you made about a lot of things. The bogus meetings they make us go to even if we're way past needing all that group therapy shit and NA/AA . All they did for me after awhile was trigger and depress me. It should not be a prerequisite for everyone. Everyone is not the same. What idiots some of the addiction doctors are.
I have not been on bup long as I mentioned below but I intend to stay on it forever if they let me. I'm finding that it's more the insurance companies that are the ones pressuring the docs to put a time frame on our needs. Screw all that. Like you said. They don't tell diabetics it's time to wean you off your meds.......or high blood pressure patients which I am one of.
So yeah, it's troublesome that they try to do it and get everyone all freaked out but I'm fairly confident as time goes on and the rules change and become more relaxed we will all be allowed to get the medication we so desperately need and maybe even some day, not have to pay so friggin much for it.
I used to be prescribed methadone 10mg tabs. They were 35 cents ea. Yup, cheap as all hell. But now that Buprenorphine is the new toy in the toy box you can bet they're squeezing every friggin dollar out of each pill. That's one big reason the insurance hates to pay for it. They never minded the methadone prescription. I didn't need all those "pre auths" and there werern't a bunch of red tape keeping me from getting my meds. Unfortunately methadone is out and buprenophine is in and it's not cheap. Sure wish it was. My insurance charges me 90. for one months worth of 6mg a day. My doc visit is 35 so it cost me close to 150. a month for my drugs. I've heard it cost a whole lot more for others and I'm so sorry about that for you. Then there are the fortunate ones that have good insurance and the co pay for the drugs isn't too high. That's the insurance I'm looking for.......all the best compadres......megster
I have not been on bup long as I mentioned below but I intend to stay on it forever if they let me. I'm finding that it's more the insurance companies that are the ones pressuring the docs to put a time frame on our needs. Screw all that. Like you said. They don't tell diabetics it's time to wean you off your meds.......or high blood pressure patients which I am one of.
So yeah, it's troublesome that they try to do it and get everyone all freaked out but I'm fairly confident as time goes on and the rules change and become more relaxed we will all be allowed to get the medication we so desperately need and maybe even some day, not have to pay so friggin much for it.
I used to be prescribed methadone 10mg tabs. They were 35 cents ea. Yup, cheap as all hell. But now that Buprenorphine is the new toy in the toy box you can bet they're squeezing every friggin dollar out of each pill. That's one big reason the insurance hates to pay for it. They never minded the methadone prescription. I didn't need all those "pre auths" and there werern't a bunch of red tape keeping me from getting my meds. Unfortunately methadone is out and buprenophine is in and it's not cheap. Sure wish it was. My insurance charges me 90. for one months worth of 6mg a day. My doc visit is 35 so it cost me close to 150. a month for my drugs. I've heard it cost a whole lot more for others and I'm so sorry about that for you. Then there are the fortunate ones that have good insurance and the co pay for the drugs isn't too high. That's the insurance I'm looking for.......all the best compadres......megster
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I give lectures now and then about 'addiction, the illness.' Once a person has thought it through several times with an open mind, the right approach becomes obvious. Doctors 'manage' all illnesses, save for a few bacterial diseases-- and even those will become things that we 'manage', as greater resistance develops in most bacteria.
There is a unique attitude applied to addiction. No other disease exists where the mainstream believes that medication is not appropriate. There are religious orders that don't believe in medication, like Christian Scientists... and there are certain religions with specific beliefs such as Scientology not believing in psychiatry, or Jehovah's Witnesses not accepting blood products. I assume the situation with addiction grew out of the fact that for years, nothing worked against addiction. People came to see addiction and alcoholism as largely untreatable, and the only survivors were the people who got to a rock bottom and in rare cases, saved themselves. That led to the idea that NOBODY can treat addiction, and the only chance at life was to find 'recovery', a nebulous term that is based in spirits and the correction of 'personality defects.'
What an obnoxious attitude-- that people with addictions have 'personality defects'! Even in the docs and rare therapists who 'get it' about medication, there is still the thought that we need to 'fix the underlying cause'. What a bunch of crap... as if all of those people out there WITHOUT addictions have GOOD personalities, but all of those people who got stuck on opioids, mostly because of bad doctors, have BAD personalities. I call bull! Opioids are powerfully-addictive substances. My personality was apparently 'good enough' to get a PhD, get married, save a drowning woman, have a family, to to med school and graduate at the top of my class, become an anesthesiologist and get elected president of my anesthesia group an unprecedented 3 times... and then, after taking cough medicine that grew to an addiction to fentanyl, that means I have 'personality defects'??!!
I'm sure everyone has their own similar story... but we've all heard so often that we have some broken screw at the base of our brains that we've started believing it. And the mistreatment by doctors and pharmacists (and reporters and the media and by society in general) perpetuates that shame among all of us.
The truth is that our ADDICTIONS caused us to do things that were wrong. We developed an intense desire to find chemicals because of the activation of addictive centers in the brain.... and THAT caused our 'character' problems.
I've written before about the 'dynamic nature of character defects'. Search my name and that term, and you will find the comments. The character problems are driven by the desire to find and use opioids. When you treat that desire with buprenorphine, those 'character defects' disappear. I've seen it over and over, in patient after patient. Some doctors perpetuate the 'character' problems by treating patients like criminals, just like ANY person will develop character problems if treated poorly long enough. The defects are a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The character defect argument is the whole reason behind the argument for counseling. But get this-- there have been several studies that looked at abstinence after discontinuation of buprenorphine after one year, with or without counseling. And the counseling group does WORSE in those studies! Of course, everyone interprets the studies by saying that 'the counseling must not have been done right' or it was not intense enough, rather than looking at the data with an open mind, as any good scientist does.
Vivitrol is the biggest example of a treatment resting on a flawed ideology. The entire treatment rests on the idea that if we block receptors and counsel the heck out of people, we will FIX them... and then they won't use when the drug is removed. Such an travesty that nobody will look at the results of this vast experiment, mostly played out by drug courts. When you think about it, we have a LONG history of experimenting on people caught in the criminal justice system. Studies in Australia showed a 12-fold higher death rate in addicts who had been maintained on naltrexone and 'counseled' compared to people maintained on methadone. When the people forced onto Vivitrol by the legal system start to die, will anyone be keeping track?
Considering that deaths after residential treatment have occurred commonly for years, I'm not holding my breath for outcome data from the failures of drug courts!
All serious chronic illnesses warrant chronic treatment, save one. All healthcare professionals will say, some reluctantly, that addiction is a disease. It is time to start TREATING IT LIKE ONE.
There is a unique attitude applied to addiction. No other disease exists where the mainstream believes that medication is not appropriate. There are religious orders that don't believe in medication, like Christian Scientists... and there are certain religions with specific beliefs such as Scientology not believing in psychiatry, or Jehovah's Witnesses not accepting blood products. I assume the situation with addiction grew out of the fact that for years, nothing worked against addiction. People came to see addiction and alcoholism as largely untreatable, and the only survivors were the people who got to a rock bottom and in rare cases, saved themselves. That led to the idea that NOBODY can treat addiction, and the only chance at life was to find 'recovery', a nebulous term that is based in spirits and the correction of 'personality defects.'
What an obnoxious attitude-- that people with addictions have 'personality defects'! Even in the docs and rare therapists who 'get it' about medication, there is still the thought that we need to 'fix the underlying cause'. What a bunch of crap... as if all of those people out there WITHOUT addictions have GOOD personalities, but all of those people who got stuck on opioids, mostly because of bad doctors, have BAD personalities. I call bull! Opioids are powerfully-addictive substances. My personality was apparently 'good enough' to get a PhD, get married, save a drowning woman, have a family, to to med school and graduate at the top of my class, become an anesthesiologist and get elected president of my anesthesia group an unprecedented 3 times... and then, after taking cough medicine that grew to an addiction to fentanyl, that means I have 'personality defects'??!!
I'm sure everyone has their own similar story... but we've all heard so often that we have some broken screw at the base of our brains that we've started believing it. And the mistreatment by doctors and pharmacists (and reporters and the media and by society in general) perpetuates that shame among all of us.
The truth is that our ADDICTIONS caused us to do things that were wrong. We developed an intense desire to find chemicals because of the activation of addictive centers in the brain.... and THAT caused our 'character' problems.
I've written before about the 'dynamic nature of character defects'. Search my name and that term, and you will find the comments. The character problems are driven by the desire to find and use opioids. When you treat that desire with buprenorphine, those 'character defects' disappear. I've seen it over and over, in patient after patient. Some doctors perpetuate the 'character' problems by treating patients like criminals, just like ANY person will develop character problems if treated poorly long enough. The defects are a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The character defect argument is the whole reason behind the argument for counseling. But get this-- there have been several studies that looked at abstinence after discontinuation of buprenorphine after one year, with or without counseling. And the counseling group does WORSE in those studies! Of course, everyone interprets the studies by saying that 'the counseling must not have been done right' or it was not intense enough, rather than looking at the data with an open mind, as any good scientist does.
Vivitrol is the biggest example of a treatment resting on a flawed ideology. The entire treatment rests on the idea that if we block receptors and counsel the heck out of people, we will FIX them... and then they won't use when the drug is removed. Such an travesty that nobody will look at the results of this vast experiment, mostly played out by drug courts. When you think about it, we have a LONG history of experimenting on people caught in the criminal justice system. Studies in Australia showed a 12-fold higher death rate in addicts who had been maintained on naltrexone and 'counseled' compared to people maintained on methadone. When the people forced onto Vivitrol by the legal system start to die, will anyone be keeping track?
Considering that deaths after residential treatment have occurred commonly for years, I'm not holding my breath for outcome data from the failures of drug courts!
All serious chronic illnesses warrant chronic treatment, save one. All healthcare professionals will say, some reluctantly, that addiction is a disease. It is time to start TREATING IT LIKE ONE.
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I'm with you Suboxdoc. Everyone here, they tell it like it is and it's really not rocket science. I look forward to the time when we can get people on the same page, or at least the powers that be, and start taking care of each other instead of watching them die.
Unfortunately humans are slow learners when it comes to the problem of addiction. We could have cured it by now. Or had it long under control but there's so much taboo around it people stick their heads in the sand.
Remember how long it took everyone to admit that Aids was a problem let alone find a solution. A lot of years and a lot of lives.
I'm so over it......ack!!!
Unfortunately humans are slow learners when it comes to the problem of addiction. We could have cured it by now. Or had it long under control but there's so much taboo around it people stick their heads in the sand.
Remember how long it took everyone to admit that Aids was a problem let alone find a solution. A lot of years and a lot of lives.
I'm so over it......ack!!!
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queenie1959
- Long Time Member
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:44 pm
- Location: New York
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Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Hi megster,
Great post by Suboxdoc. I wish they all were like him.
Megster, as far as insurance goes, I have Medicare and Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield from retirement of my job. I am very fortunate because the retirement coverage I have is great. I was there 21 years. So, Medicare pays 80% and the retirement coverage pays 20%. My B/C B/S RX coverage charges me $10 for each medication and my Dr. allows up to 5 refills. and he is fine with me seeing him every 6 months. I applied for Medicaid and they said my income was $19 over the limit. Outrageous!!!!! Yes, like you said, insurance companies are so strange. I am lucky that I had good coverage because I was in the hospital 19 times back in 2011. 4 femoral bypasses, 2 amputations, pancreatitus(I used to drink a lot) and I had a mild heart attack in 2012, an infection in my stump, I had to have Hyperbaric treatments, 30 to be exact. Then, since it wouldn't heal, I had a debridement. There's more fun. Then they discovered my stump wasn't healing right because the surgeon didn't cut enough bone and there was a piece of bone that wouldn't let it close. Yep, another surgery to cut that piece of protruding bone. Boy, if I didn't have that insurance I don't know what I would be doing now.
Sorry for going on & on. I hope things work out for you with medicaid, it should help a lot.
Keep fighting the fight. I am too. I never want to go back to who I was. I am so happy now.
Keep in touch. Stay strong my friend,
Love, Queenie
Great post by Suboxdoc. I wish they all were like him.
Megster, as far as insurance goes, I have Medicare and Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield from retirement of my job. I am very fortunate because the retirement coverage I have is great. I was there 21 years. So, Medicare pays 80% and the retirement coverage pays 20%. My B/C B/S RX coverage charges me $10 for each medication and my Dr. allows up to 5 refills. and he is fine with me seeing him every 6 months. I applied for Medicaid and they said my income was $19 over the limit. Outrageous!!!!! Yes, like you said, insurance companies are so strange. I am lucky that I had good coverage because I was in the hospital 19 times back in 2011. 4 femoral bypasses, 2 amputations, pancreatitus(I used to drink a lot) and I had a mild heart attack in 2012, an infection in my stump, I had to have Hyperbaric treatments, 30 to be exact. Then, since it wouldn't heal, I had a debridement. There's more fun. Then they discovered my stump wasn't healing right because the surgeon didn't cut enough bone and there was a piece of bone that wouldn't let it close. Yep, another surgery to cut that piece of protruding bone. Boy, if I didn't have that insurance I don't know what I would be doing now.
Sorry for going on & on. I hope things work out for you with medicaid, it should help a lot.
Keep fighting the fight. I am too. I never want to go back to who I was. I am so happy now.
Keep in touch. Stay strong my friend,
Love, Queenie
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
I can say I could be one of the longest ive known, about 10 years now, at first, I could not understand why ANYONE would want to stop taking this medication, I am one of those people that get energy form opiods, and as a results of an undiagnosed hypoactive thyroid, I had low energy - hence me seeking drugs just to get through the day, and you all know where that road led me, anyway, back to subs, I would get that "rush" of energy FOR YEARS and years of staying on it, which is why I couldn't imagine coming off, I also have a wonderful doctor who has no intention of taking anyone off this "maintenance program". and for those of you who wonder if they will be taken off suddenly, I am pretty sure the pharmaceutical companies (aka government) have found a way to be dope dealers, and with all the new laws put in place for addicts, there will be much less restrictions on time frames, in fact, I think it will be encouraged for most to stay on for life, here is what I will say to that, my dopamine receptors are gummed up, I have no will to do anything in life, and until I did my research just recently, I couldn't understand why I felt so neglectful of daily simple tasks, and it all comes down to lack of dopamine in my system, suboxone globs onto our dopamine receptors and gums them up so nothing will get past it (suboxone) therefore, even taking a supplement for dopamine I fear would just be counter productive at this point, which means, I either have to live this way, or take myself off the onlyl thing I have known for ten years, it helps me with back pain and gives me a little "lift" in the morning (not even close to the boost I had when I first took it) and it keeps me from using, even if it was mentally, I have the piece of mind of a "drug" in me, therefore, no need to take one, that would be gone, so, there are lots of reasons for me to stay on, but more to come off of subs.
Re: How long is the longest patient out there?
Thanks for your post!
I found this site at the exact time I decided to finally do something "different". That was about 7.5 yrs ago and it's one of the best decisions Ive ever made in my life.
I'm 38 and I've been using since I was 13. The harder drugs and opiates began in my 20's.
Although this medication has obviously prevented me from being in withdrawal and has been the BEST deterrent ever for active addiction, I feel certain it's helped with the anxiety, depression, and internal un-ease I've felt ever since I was a little girl.
I began on a very high dose of 32mg. I went down to 24mg shortly afterwards and stayed at that dose for years. I became pregnant, continued the 24mg through my entire pregnancy and had a healthy baby boy WITHOUT any complications or neo-natal withdrawal.
Fast forward- I've made FANTASTIC strides in my recovery and personal life during this time frame. I've
earned specialty licenses, built a business single handidly, grew into a significantly better mom wife daughter friend and citizen. I've also become much healthier physically and mentally. I've successfully reduced from 24mg to 4mg over the past couple yrs. From time to time my doctor tries to push me towards weaning completely off. And, I'm simply NOT ready. I don't know if I ever will be.
I actually just saw my doctor yesterday and he's reduced my dose to 3mg for next month. I believe his intention is to push me off this medication within the next few months. He understands Im not ready and I've coveyed over and over all the ways this drug is helping me. Unfortunately, I don't think he's
receptive to my feelings anymore. He's truly a fabulous doctor and he's helped me immensely during the time I've been his patient (approximately 5 of my 7.5yrs). But, I'm coming to realize I'll probably need to begin looking for a new doctor.
Ive completed in-patient, out-patient, private therapy, methadone, and antidepressants in the past and Suboxone is the ONLY thing that's worked. Even if taking this medication was a placebo effect at this low dose, I would still happily strap this seat belt on everyday for the rest of my life....because I know deep down it's SAVING my life!!
I found this site at the exact time I decided to finally do something "different". That was about 7.5 yrs ago and it's one of the best decisions Ive ever made in my life.
I'm 38 and I've been using since I was 13. The harder drugs and opiates began in my 20's.
Although this medication has obviously prevented me from being in withdrawal and has been the BEST deterrent ever for active addiction, I feel certain it's helped with the anxiety, depression, and internal un-ease I've felt ever since I was a little girl.
I began on a very high dose of 32mg. I went down to 24mg shortly afterwards and stayed at that dose for years. I became pregnant, continued the 24mg through my entire pregnancy and had a healthy baby boy WITHOUT any complications or neo-natal withdrawal.
Fast forward- I've made FANTASTIC strides in my recovery and personal life during this time frame. I've
earned specialty licenses, built a business single handidly, grew into a significantly better mom wife daughter friend and citizen. I've also become much healthier physically and mentally. I've successfully reduced from 24mg to 4mg over the past couple yrs. From time to time my doctor tries to push me towards weaning completely off. And, I'm simply NOT ready. I don't know if I ever will be.
I actually just saw my doctor yesterday and he's reduced my dose to 3mg for next month. I believe his intention is to push me off this medication within the next few months. He understands Im not ready and I've coveyed over and over all the ways this drug is helping me. Unfortunately, I don't think he's
receptive to my feelings anymore. He's truly a fabulous doctor and he's helped me immensely during the time I've been his patient (approximately 5 of my 7.5yrs). But, I'm coming to realize I'll probably need to begin looking for a new doctor.
Ive completed in-patient, out-patient, private therapy, methadone, and antidepressants in the past and Suboxone is the ONLY thing that's worked. Even if taking this medication was a placebo effect at this low dose, I would still happily strap this seat belt on everyday for the rest of my life....because I know deep down it's SAVING my life!!