SUBOXONE vs METHADONE FOR PAIN MANAGEMENT!!!!

Granted Im not a doctor but I dont see how taking oxycodone along with suboxone would do anything at all. I know a guy who is on hydrocodone for an amputated foot along with suboxone (for addiction he's a heroin addict) and he gets no pain relief at all he says. I know hydrocodone is weaker than oxy but Im just using it as an example. I guess you would have to be on a low dose of sub like 4mgs or less but then you are going to end up craving constantly like I do as I am on 4mgs.

I don't know. You would have to read the research article he posted in the thread and I believe that explains it. I'm skeptical myself in that I have taken oxy after surgery while on sub and it does nothing for me. On the other hand, I understand Dr. J when he says you will only develop a tolerance to the methadone for pain anyways so there basically has to be an end. I mean, unfortunately for BBoy, he is so young. Can you imagine the methadone dose he would have to be on for pain eventually? But the time he is 60?

I really don't think they have developed great solutions for pain. You can either take opiates forever and develop an incredible tolerance or take methadone and develop tolerance or take suboxone and develop tolerance.

I always think of my situation like this. It is unnatural to even have to explore such long term pain killing options because I should have died years ago. Modern medicine kept me here but now I can't have a quality of life. I sometimes wish I would have refused treatment and just died.

(I know I sound quite miserable right now and this is because I am. I am sure this will pass like everything else....eventually).

Cherie

Yea I was thinking the same thing as suboxowned how would even a supplement of OC work if I am on 24 mgs of SUBOXONE even 8 mgs? Can you post the link Cherie I couldn’t seem to find t the thread you were talking about? On another hand I know I wouldn’t get euphoria or high from the supplement but it would work for my pain maybe I’m sure it would if Dr. J would take time to post it. But knowing myself if I ever brought OC aka my Drug of Choice back into the picture I would end up in a very bad spot. I know myself and I would branch off into my world of addiction saying well if I am taken a supplement of OXY than why not just take the real thing. Than ill end up back in pain management clinics getting opiates.

I do agree Cherie it is scary of where my dose of methadone could end up down the road if I switched. But I am even more scared of were ill end up if I continue down the road I am with suboxone! Every day gets worst and every day all I think about is pain killers if I don’t make a change soon and fast I don’t know where things will end up. And I am very scared of relapsing but like yourself knowing what it is like to live in pain every day your mind could do terrible things to want to not be in pain. I guess it’s more than safe to say I am at a dead end with SUBOXONE it just doesn’t work anymore. I have cravings like I use to have when I was in between scripts of oxycontin. And my pain is not being managed and my only other option is methadone. I have accepted that I will be on a chemical dependency medication the rest of my life and I just don’t think its goanna be SUBOXONE. But like I said I am goanna try everything to stay on SUB so I don’t have to go back to full antagonist but I am not getting my hopes up that anything will change.

And Cherie some days I wish I refused SUBOXONE for treatment as well I hate what this drug has done to my life and me as a person. I am so numb to reality it makes me cry sure SUB saved my life but its making my life a living hell now!

Cherie I feel for you when you said "I wish I would of just refused treatment and just died", its ironic because I said that very same thing today when I got back from my PO and I have said it to myself probably once a week if not more since I got off opiates. I just wish sometimes that the phenazepam and opiate overdose I had 6 months ago would of killed me and i would of just never woke up from the blackout, instead I woke up in a jail cell for a domestic violence charge (me and my father got into a scuffle) and now have a permanent record at 25 years old and nobody will hire me and give me a chance to make a life for myself because when they see my record they think Im a wife beater and dont know that it was my dad who I got into it with because I never get a chance to get face to face with an interviewer they just toss my application as soon as they see my charge. Sorry for the rambling im just trying to explain why I feel the way I do, its like Im doing everything I can in life to work my recovery despite being on a low ball dose of suboxone and fighting through it everyday and Im not using, I'm getting my GED finaly after putting it off for years because of addiction and Im trying to stay positive about life but when you get nothing but punishment for trying to do right it starts to feel like "why bother staying clean Im gonna get the same results using as I am if I stay clean" and thats being miserable. Most days I feel like I would rather just go back to using opiates, there are worse things in the world than being addicted for example fighting a non winning battle with addiction everyday of your life consantly having to work recovery just to get through the day, Id rather be using and at least have that escape because I can say in all honesty that I was happier while using. I am more miserable now and while I was using and getting high I was never miserable as long as I was opiated it was only the first few hours of the day before I had dosed that I was miserable but the majority of the time I always had a supply and dosed right away when i woke up so that wasnt realy an issue since I rarely ran out. Bboy I sympathize with you too because I also will be on ORT more than likely forever and I can say with certainty that it sure isn't gonna be suboxone, I will get on methadone when its able to be done but until then I gotta settle for subs. Also even tho methadone causes tolerance I dont believe it loses its effectiveness for curbing cravings even tho you become tolerant to the "buzz" because I remember when I was in pretty much a maintenance phase with my drug of choice for a couple months, I was so tolerant that I could not get high anymore but when i dosed I did not get cravings nearly as much as I do with sub, sure I wanted to get high but there is a big difference between wanting and craving. Bboy I would do whatever you need to do to have a good quality of life because frankly everyone who has pain and has taken or is taking suboxone knows it does next to nothing for pain and I also dont buy into the idea that the same dose a person stabilizes on will work the same 10 years from now as it did in the beginning during induction. Man I got way off track with the rambling so I'll stop, jackcrack and bboy I hope everything starts to get better for you because I know how it is to be struggling because Im going through a lot as well.

Suboxowned, I'm so sorry to see you this dreadfully unhappy. It's clear you are not happy in your recovery; you've said multiple times that you'd rather still be using. I applaud you for admitting that. The way you describe how you feel sounds familiar to me. It reminds me of what some people call a "dry drunk". They've stopped using their DOC (or drinking), but they kind of don't want to be in recovery. I have no idea if this fits you or not, it just sounded familiar to me. I genuinely hope you can find some relief some day, be it methadone or a higher dose of sub. I'd hate to see you go back to using though. That never ends well and has lots of lasting negative consequences, as I'm sure all of us know.

I just want to add that not all of us with chronic pain think suboxone is useless. It has been extremely valuable to me in allowing me to live with a tolerable level of pain. It works for others as well. I wish it worked better for you, but some people do have a good experience with it relieving at least some of their pain. There is a middle ground between it helping everyone or helping no one - and that is that it helps some people. I think we can both agree on that.

Again, I hope you find some peace soon. When I read your words I can hear your pain and I feel for you. Please take care.
_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.

Thank you for understanding where I am coming from Suboxowned. But like Hat I am so sorry to hear that you are going through such a terrible time right now. It’s not easy to continue taking SUBOXONE when it is worthless to your recovery in a sense and I can agree with you on that. I also had the same ideas at times when I first started my recovery, that I was a lot happier and better person while using. But then you really think about and that’s not true it may seem true during rough times but when all is said and done your HEALTH IS VERY IMPORTANT and let’s face facts the drugs we took destroyed our body’s. I know I am sure you heard this many times over the last couple months but some days it’s the only thing that does work “take it each day at a time”! People in recovery think that quote is bullshit but it truly helps on these bad days. Look forward to the future man things can and will get better just give it time. I know I read that you might be getting onto the assistance program soon at your SUB Dr any update on that????? I really do think a increase in your dose will make a big difference in your mood and mind set. Ill keep my finger crossed for you and say a prayer tonight. Are you seeing any type of drug counselor man? I can tell you that is the only reason I have been clean for the last 4 years it helps so much to be able to talk to a professional that know how to deal with this shit.

One thing I agree totally with what you said is SUB and long term I can tell you only after 4 years that 24 to 32 mgs is not even close to the same as it was my first 2 years.

But one thing I want you to understand is SUBOXONE did work for my pain for a good 3 years I don’t want to cause false hope in any one that it won’t work for pain because it does and will help. I am just at a point in my treatment where SUB is not working for my CRAVINGS AND My PAIN. But that is only after I reinjured my knee for the 2nd time this 4th year on SUB. But more than anything sub just isn’t allowing me to live a happy normal life any more and that’s the main reason I am going to switch to methadone.

Suboxowned - I too am sorry you are in this situation. I will say that although it seems hopeless with the DV charge right now, it is not. I don't know what field you want to work in but many employers don't do background checks and of those who do, many will only disqualify you from employment for felonies and not misdemeanors and others will only disqualify for fraud or theft charges and most will only look back 5 years. You will get over that charge....I can assure you. Especially if you don't ADD any to it. I do think sub is at least keeping you out of jail right now no? I mean, I too agree you would do somewhat better on a higher dose. It may not be perfect for you and maybe methadone would be better for you in the end, but it should keep you from getting high. In the meantime, you really have to do something to make this better for yourself. Do you have a therapist? Can you get one? Please don't interpret this to mean that I think it is all in your head because that is NOT what I am saying. But I don't go to NA/AA. I just have a therapist who I started seeing when I was still on oxy. We started for marriage counseling and then I liked it and continued on. Not only did it totally save my relationship, but I have learned to really mellow out about a lot of things. To a point where I have quit smoking with relatively little stress. Some of that is the chantix but a great majority of it is what I have learned in therapy. I still have bad days but there are things you can do without becoming obsessed with NA. I know you aren't happy with where you are at right now and I don't blame you. I just don't want to see you relapse over it while you are waiting to implement your permanent solution.

Cherie

Thanks you guys for the kind words. Yeah bboy I have a drug counselor I go to outpatient 2 times a week and was going 3 times a week until recently when they lowered my attendance to 2 days for doing well and since Ive been there for about 5 months. It realy helps alot although we do disagree on a few things, she doesnt tell me to get off sub but she doesnt understand that ORT is only effective usualy in the long term. Ive told her how I have not been doing well on 4mgs and Im gonna increase my dose when and if I get on the PAP but she says "I talked to my staff and they all agree that your body should be used to that dose by now and you dont need anymore" she doesnt understand the ceiling effect and that you have to be at or above the ceiling to reduce cravings no matter how much I try to explain it. I dont get why she views ORT as something that should be short term because she used to work the window at a methadone clinic years ago and was actualy on methadone herself for awhile. Jackcrack I don't have a therapist because I cant afford it but I would love to have one and think it would be very beneficial to me, I too dont realy like NA/AA but I go because treatment recommends it so Im trying to give it a chance. I just cant stand how 12 step groups act like they dont preach god or religion but then at the same time thats all anyone talks about when they share. I think they talk about it constantly on purpose in order to weed out the non religous people and scare them off, maybe thats just negative thinking on my part but it just seems that way to me. I have no problem with people who believe in god but its just not my thing to get of bed and drop to my knees and pray every morning. I dont know what I believe in, I dont believe in some almighty being who watches over everyone every single day and guides them but I do believe in something greater than me. One thing about meetings that annoys me is when you bring up that your life isnt going the way you'd like and you are having a hard time and they always say to me "your life is rigged, god has layed out everything in your life already and you are just going down the path he's already layed out for you". I dont believe that at all I think people make their own life and their own way its not already chosen for them. Another thing about meetings that bothers me is that sometimes you just wanna get something off your chest that is bothering you but meetings dont realy make that possible because every meeting has some specific topic or its a step group or a big book cough cough bible study meeting so you gotta stay with whatever the topic is. I wish somehow people could start a sub/methadone anonymous for people like us so we could be around people who understand us.

Oh I know man I too can't stand it when AA people or my counselor acts as if they are smarter than my doctor he's somehow not doing the right thing by having me on sub and ativan. When I was getting my assessment for treatment one of my questions was "if I choose to admit myself to this treatment center will I have to go off my prescribed ativan and suboxone?" and the answer I got from her was "no as long as you dont abuse them and take them as prescribed thats fine but if you abuse then it will be a problem" and I was fine with that because I dont abuse them but ever since I started my meds have been an issue. I decided I had had enough of trying to explain myself and stopped the ativan instantly (Ive never been addicted to it I take it sparingly) because i felt like I was being strong armed off it because other people were kicked out for taking Rx'd benzos as the sole reason so I got scared because I have to finish treatment for probation. So I quit the ativan but stayed on sub and then I just started going downhill and my anxiety attacks of course were still there and I had nothing to make the extreme ones go away anymore so I started getting realy depressed. So with that happening I told her and the group at my next appt with my sub doc Im gonna bring up my anxiety and depression and see what he says and she said "thats a good idea I encourage you to do that and if you dont bring it up because you are worried about seeming like you are seeking anxiety meds I'll call him and explain to him how bad your anxiety is getting if you want" and I said nah thats ok I'll bring it up to him. So I go in to my appt tell him how Im having a realy hard time and he asks "are you having anxiety or panic?" and I told him yeah and that I wish I would of never gone off the ativan so he says "I'll give you 30 of them to use on an as needed basis" and I said ok. Well as soon as I bring it up at treatment the counselor starts shaking her head and said "no no no" like Im a child and again Im stuck trying to explain myself to no avail. I okay'd it with my PO and he said "I know you have bad anxiety take man take it if you feel you need to" and he called my counselor to express my concern over the whole situation, well Ive been able to take it but its still an issue. Its not I went to a different doctor behind my sub docs back and got it I freaking got it from him he knows my whole addiction history and treats addicts daily, i dont think he's gonna put me or himself at risk for nothing he obviously knows I have an anxiety disorder but she doesn't care. Man that sucks tho that all the methadone clinics in your area are in the ghetto, theres 2 by me one of them is in the ghetto but there is another one in the good part of town so I wont have to go to a bad neighborhood when I decide to switch to it.

Yea SUB you truly are def in a tough situation I’d say. TO have a probation officer give you the OK to take BENZOS for your anxiety Disorder and be told no by a drug counselor is just crazy man. I am sorry if I got this wrong but I think that’s how you said it. All you can do is keep a firm lip and fight through it is my best advice and hopefully soon something will change. What does she think of you wanting to switch to methadone?

Well so after calling clinics over the past few days almost every single methadone clinic in Buffalo has switched over to SUBOXONE. And the couple that are still doing methadone are either in the worst part of town or 25 minutes away, and as we all know GAS IS NOT CHEAP. So I am not sure of what I am going to do right now. But every nurse I did talk with told me with my situation my best bet would to find a private Methadone Dr so now I got to go on another hunt for help.

I sit here and ask myself all day long is this really worth it all this bullshit with SUBOXONE and I just say don’t take my dose 5 days of hell to be free from this devil of a drug might just be worth it. When I say this I don’t mean I want to relapse I mean JUST BE DRUG FREE AND DEAL WITH THE PAIN! I got to say I am sure a lot don’t like what I have to say lately about SUB but I this shit ruined my life and now that I want off of it i have no options! And the only options i do have all put me in a shitty situation because i will be in withdrawal no matter what i do if i want off. And SUBOXONE withdrawal is the worst WD i have ever dealt with and i have been in WDs with pretty much every single drug you can name over my years of drug use.

But i just want to say thankyou all for the support and help you gave me over the years but i got to take some time off from the forum because i really dont have anything good to say about suboxone any more. This drug has ruined my life in so many ways and the only emtions i can show are anger and i dont want to give people false hope this drug saved my life, helped me many ways. But after this pass year if you could only fell how i fell right now you would never touch this shit if you had a chance to do it all over. I will state this if i knew what i knew about suboxone now when i first inducted i would of never put myself in this hell its putting me through.

The clinics actualy switched over to suboxone and only dispense the sub and got rid of the methadone? Man that is crazy I was wondering if in the future all clinics are going to do some BS like that because sub is out and considered the new best thing for opiate addiction. I realy hope that isnt the case and frankly I dont see why anyone would go to a clinic for suboxone to begin with when you can just get it from regular doctor. I pretty much agree with everything you said about sub in that post but unfortunately I cant realy say much because I got a PM today by a mod threatening to ban me forever because Im saying that suboxone isnt working for me so I have to be dishonest on the forum and just say "yay Im doing awesome with suboxone" or else Im gone.

People are only issued warnings for breaking the rules of the forum, NOT for disagreements and certainly not for saying they are not doing well.
_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.