Acute and Post Acute Withdrawal - the lowdown.

I found this gem today. It goes really technical and covers pretty much every drug of addiction, so I'll quote the bits most relevant for us...

(I'm on day 33 of Suboxone, after a year+ long addiction to heroin. I used Sub in the past, admittedly i not with my whole heart, and relapsed. This time I'm also in therapy and 12-step. My point of this reply is...)

How does taking Suboxone fit into this withdrawal/post acute withdrawal process? By now I'd think all the heroin is out of my body, though I realize I now have the opiate in Suboxone in my system. What type of withdrawal should I expect from Suboxone? My fiancé reasons that since the heroin is gone, and I'm through "that stage" of it, that when the time comes to stop Suboxone (I'm in no rush, I'm trusting my professionals and doing research) that the withdrawal won't be anything nearly as bad as the feeling-like-I'm-dying withdrawals that I'd feel when I ran out of heroin.

Any input? As I read this info (ty for posting) it seems to talk about getting ALL opiates out of one's system.

[quote="laddertipper"]

I think she jumped off 1/16th of a 2mg pill.

[quote="NoMorePills"]

I am so confused. I think I lost track of where I am at... I thought I was at .25 mg.... But now I think because I am cutting these 2mg strips into.............okay Okay..(analyzing this waaaay too much) I am good. Lol.. Jeeze, I am terrible with fractions and decimals but I googled it and I am at .125mg in the AM and .125mg in the PM, every other night. So this means I am at 1/4 mg. everyother day & 1/8 mg. on the other days. WHEW! I think It is doable at this point. Reading LT comment about feeling the onset after 2 weeks, I believe it, because after a few months of steady tapering every 2 weeks I was hit with a couple weeks of extreme fatigue and depression. (completely foreign to me) It did go away as I started taking DHEA and power walking daily for 20 min. or so. I am a FIRM believer in healthy diet and physical activity daily. We can get thru this for SURE it is just a matter of dealing with a few weeks of less than perfect days. I mean many people in other countries deal with A LOT more on a daily basis with NO end in sight. Surely we can push thru. We have comfort meds, comfortable beds, netflix, MMJ, and this forum, thank goodness. We GOT THIS kids.. Have a great eve. & good luck with it all..

OK ok. So LT was at about .06mg which is actually more than I am going to try to jump from. I had to go back to .4mg last night as I was miserable. GOing to .35 today and hopefully back to .3 tomorrow for five days. Then a .05 drop every week and jump at .05mg. Glad to hear the landing is not bad at all from there. Thanks for the reply LT.

NoMorePills,

Hey there, if you want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, let me know.
I will check back here later in the night, I have a pretty detailed post in another area, you are in for a rocky ride babe but it is doable, I am at the same place you are 4mg, working with doc and work, am planning to take off three weeks at lease because I know what I am in for.

I was at .4mg, but am now down to .1mg. I also changed my dosing to night so I can actually get some sleep. I would rather be a little uncomfortable during the day and sleep well at night than have the damned RLS at night and feel like hell the next day because I did not sleep. Today is the fourth day at .1. I plan on staying here for 8-9 days. I have found that that is how long I am taking to stabilize after each drop. Then it will be to .05 and then off. Getting nervous about the final jump but from .05 I am hoping it will not be too bad. That will also mean I will have been on Subs for a total of 9 1/2 weeks. Hopefully that will work in my favor as well.

This informations is gold! Thank you. There is so much(dis) information out there. This make total sense. My wife is an RN and agrees 100% with everything said above. Everybody that's going through this should read this.

Gold is right - I think its brave (but sincerely wise) to have dose at night since i just rambled some loooooong post about how I am down to .125 and HURTING!!! and NOT sleeping because the little bits are so little I am scared to hurt all day ... you know making lunches for kids ...working ... just being polite when your whole body screams ....."I know how to feel better really quick." (this is not going to happen since I am just over five months and will never return to the life to nowhere or worse....)
Buuuut what I am saying is should I be slowing down????? I was on subs five or six years 10 years on opiods...is this causing there problem I was following all your ideas ..... slloooooow but as soon as I felt okay....then i'd drop???AHHH!!! patience the virtue I ask God for everyday!!!!

Clarity- Listen to your body and your circumstances. If you are really comfortable at a certain dose, then a drop is okay. I am doing it every 8-9 days. But if you think that dropping or getting off will leave you open to going back to your DOC, then stay where you are and enjoy life and no pain.

Hey Nomorepills -
Yes you were right.. I was and am always super sensitive about any bad "feelings" ..
anyway finally made the jump from .0625 ?? (half .125) a week and a bit ..all like the other drops ..
.but this time I caught a cold so its all a little ironic really ...I am fine now sub wise just a little flat from being a bit sick but whatever because
it is done!!!!!! It is possible to come off this STRONG drug.
take care clarity7

Laddertipper, nomorepills, you guys got this down to a science, you should be a sub doc because every sub doc I know doeant know sh** and you guys get tell them whats really up.

Clarity7... Youre here, you made it to the endof this long and grueling marathon, when you jump its going to be jumping from a curb, not a 5th story window. Im on day 6 of no subs and havent had any acute withdrawals except for not sleeping right. Ur at such a low dose and Im so proud to see you did ur work and time. Because u did it the right way im sure you will feel the tiniest of symptoms ot nothing at all. Great job amd let us know when u do jump and keep us updated.

I've been told PAWS lasts significantly longer for long-half life opioids (ie methadone and Suboxone). My old prescribing doctor told me it can take 18 months for the brain to re-adjust to a level of functioning that could be said to be in the normal range (something about protein kinase C levels?)... It can take around half that time for shorter half life drugs like heroin.

Buprenorphine and moreso methadone are very high lipid soluble, and trace amounts remain in body fat and take months to be excreted, which slows the process of the brain and body normalising. Hence a longer period of acute withdrawal, and a longer period of PAWS.

Maybe this is one of the reasons exercise speeds up PAWS, as exercise aids in the excretion of drugs from our tissue, and speeds up the turnover (life-cycle) of our body's cells?

Because of our addiction, after a period of abstinence our addictive circuit becomes much more reactive any time we re-introduce opioids to our body. If our tissues excrete these trace amounts of opioids into our blood months after we've stopped using, even such small amounts could trick our opioid receptors into thinking there's drugs still in our body, thus slowing our brain's recovery. Just theorising.

well,,you said it,,girl?,,anyway,,execise is the one most important thing to do ,,wether your wd'ing or not,,i make myself excercise,,(and your probably gonna laugh),,put i put my meds in a safety deposit box at my bank,,and force myself to ride a bicycle to the bank everymorning!,,You may think the bank would get tired of me,,but im lucky in regaeds to that,,i ask them once if its too much of a problem for them opening my box everyday and they just smiled and said its their job,,and weve all become friends and one ask me to go to church with her yesterday,,i only told one guy what i was doin,,my daughters had a GF live close by who died goin to one of those pharm parties where everyone raids their parents med cabinet and throw it all in a big bowl and they just start takin stuff they have no idea what its used for,,something i probably,,no i wouldve done in my teenage yrs!,,But she died from it,,and i told the guy at the bank,,at least i know i wont be responsible in anyway if they do it again.,,Plus i have an everlast punchin bag in the livin room pushed up against the wall,,it easy,,its fun,,and when i pull it out i can watch tv while i punch away!,,I like watchin UFC while i punch,,or HBO fights on friday night!,,lol
But its hard to excercise when wd'ing,,thats why its important to find something you actually like doin,,like my punchin bag,

but one thing i read most is that paws last more like 9 mos tops,,but could be wrong,,i though i read somewhere here that people dont even believe in paws?
TT

OMGosh, did you just call TearJerker a girl?? Shocked

........... Laughing

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!

sorry to butt in.... since i went another route and am 2 1/2 weeks off but sub is weird. Heroin wd was heck but once over i had no PAWS. Just weird cravings for raw meat. Night and day, rode a bike 3 miles to a restaurant and ate the most expensive thing they had. Waiter had a towel over his arm. Nice guy......

I don't feel any physical paws, fatigue, or pain which is weird cause i had back pain while on sub. Maybe it caused it. Right now worst is insomnia and no emotion or motivation. Oh and i hate the sunlight! Which sux cause i live in the sunshine state. I do excercise. It helps dramatically. And i began editing movies again, which i never did on sub. I was slightly depressed for a week but its gone now. Herbal supplements like amoryn help. I really try and stay away from the laundry list of pills the doc prescribed me but i do take the sleep meds, switch them up though don't want to trade one addiction for another. PAWS i guess is a tricky beast and different for everyone. There probably is no right or wrong answer to get through it. I guess like they say "time heals all wounds"

I just keep on goin on and it will go away. Jesus said we are given strength through suffering. No offence to anyone here, just thought i'd butt in. God Bless and keep on however you decide to do it.
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This world is meaningless, but through Him is everlasting life!!

I am I guess one who has the worst of tapering. I am lucky to sleep 2-4 hours, and I tapered from 24 mg to now .25. I HURT. I
feel like I have a sunburn. It moves. Have to wrap myself if specific cloth to wear a shirt at all. Even my fingertips are screaming as i type this. I get blue and cry a lot. Then off on a upset the next minute. Seems like I have more of the PAWS sensations than the acute withdrawals. Guess that is the brain trying to heal itself. It all started the second I dropped my dose, and I am dropping every 7-10 days. When the pain gets tolerable. It gets better when I take my dose. I am nutty. Few hallucinations. Cold sweats are always fun. Couldn't be working, thank the powers that be I can remain safe at home. You all are having it sounds like a cake walk compared to me. My muscle pain curls me into a ball for days not short duration. Now, I was in a terrible car accident. Thrown out of a vehicle after being hit head on, then rear ended, and flipped three time. This left me with lots of internal and external damage. With all I have had to face, this is my most difficult challenge. I have to do this torture by choice. I am now on a pain pump with a non narcotic drug in it. It has created for me the opportunity to never allow opiates into my body again. Yea. I am over 30 so my chances are pretty good for success. I have never had a craving, can you have them for Demerol? Never liked it just help me escape the migraines I suffer from daily. Kept me in the dark and sick to my tummy and wishing for the suffering to end for 15 days at a time. Each and every month. My headaches are now tolerable. 1-2 days in bed now. I am able hips permitting, to exercise a bit. And, out of my chair much more often. So, I think, due to my pain levels becoming acute and exaggerated by the ws's, is why my tapering is so difficult. Terrified of my last jump, if it hurts this bad with a drop. The fog is lifting. I have lost some of my memories. Comforts baths, sauna, exercise, meditation, sweets, and clonidine. No RLS. I am horny like I was at 16. It is really bothersome at 44. I had lost dealing with that when I went onto the sub. Also I couldn't dream not even daydream. Started getting that back too. Funny what sub makes you lose. I ramble and am a bit scattered. Sorry about that. I think it feels like being on speed, with no way down. Except at the beginning I had all kinds of pent up energy, and now I am lethargic. Could also be how the opiate is reacting with my Prialt. Can't wait till it is over. Please what kind of reactions are you having through the taper? Noticing too that us who have been on opiates a very very long time. I 16 years on all kinds of medications, demerol and morphine injections in the final years and an additional 1 1/2 years on sub. The more damage we have caused the worse the wd's. We are having to pay the piper for our transgressions.

One last comment. I think tapering causes us to focus too much on the dope. We are calculating our doses and when and how to take it. We are figuring out a way to use it to get smaller doses. Most of us then are given other drugs that we then are calculating how much how long. It is like recreating all our old habits leading to our jump. Scary. Reinforcing that which we are trying to quit. Difference between a pain patient and a drug addict. Pain patients horde their drugs, drug addicts are always seeking them. I digress. Sorry.

When I got down to 0.25mg I was in full out WD so I just jumped. It sounds like the same is true for you. You might want to just jump now and get it over with. It will also free you from obsessing about your dose. It does get better, I promise. Hang in there and good luck.
Lilly

Gosh, I like this forum and hate it at the same time.
I want to tell people about my success and failures but this forum is quickly becoming a bummer for me.
Getting off of Subutex after 1.5 years at 6mg...no taper wasn't fun but wasn't as bad as one would think after visiting this forum. I know that individual physiology and psychology have a lot to do with it. But a large amount of what I expected to happen didn't. First off, I read that Subutex destroys the receptors in your brain and blah blah blah. Maybe so, but after about 3 days I started to feel super emotional, was able get goosebumps again and after being constipated for so long enjoyed having an upset stomache.
Went 13 days cold turkey and you know what did me in ? BOREDOM !!!
Now, I know half a vicodin 2x a day is considered a relapse but thats what I did and have no bad feelings about it.
Dr Scalan (who Im sure you all know) even uses low dose Darvon to get people off long term Subutex use.
Maybe Im still young enough to recover quickly, or maybe my previous addiction wasnt that bad. 10-12 norco a day. Or maybe I just wasnt hooked that long. Opiates 2 years, Subutex 1.5

But if anyone is reading this and isnt posting, Like I was beore I quit Subutex LISTEN>

YOUR EXPERIENCE WILL BE YOUR EXPERIENCE.

There is a lot of people on here with good experiences, I like to think mine is one, even though my method is controversial.
I knew I had the discipline so I did it. nonetheless, Dont get super scared and start to expect the worst.

Exercise, will be your best weapon , hands down.