Liquified Suboxone Taper Method: So Far, So Good

I nearly forgot to take my evening dose, and since I'm feeling so good I decided to drop down to .025mgs every twelve hours. Once I cut that in half I'll probably jump. As it stands right now, I'm taking such a low dose that I'm pretty sure I could stop right now without much of a problem... but you know what? I would rather feel little or no withdrawal at the end of this little opiate waltz, and no one here gets any extra points for unnecessary pain, so what's another week or so?

I will say this "I know all to well what withdrawal and PAWS feels like when you stop taking a very high and constant dose of Oxycontin, and I don't think I'd care for what would probably be some of the same long term craptastic agony when jumping from a relatively high dose of a partial agonist like suboxone. But so far, this has been nothing like that at all."

It seems apparent that the ability to accurately control the exact dose of bup with the liquid taper method was the key to success after all. Add a positive attitude, daily exercise, and a proper diet and things are that much easier.

Sobriety you slippery bastard, I've got you by the tail and I don't intend on letting you go anytime soon, if ever.

I've got a busy week, but I'll try to check back here on Friday at the latest.

Have a good night everyone!

donh,
I never heard anything of the patches, but my doc said he was going to a conference that is being held in the United states next week, I mentioned to him about the liquified taper method which he said was interesting but could not comment, he did mention to me about a .4mg tab that will be discussed at this meeting, which if you think about does not make much sense, i would think a .5 would be much more practical.

Anyway I am very interested in going with the liquified taper method but still have a ways to go. I just started on suboxone on Jan 8th 2010, it took me about two weeks to level off at 24mg, I continued this dose for 8 weeks then started tapering. I have since decreased from 24 to 20 to 16 to 12 and I just starting monday at 8mg. I feel alot better than I thought i would, no major changes yet. I want to be able to handle my taper without compromising my work ( nobody knows but my wife and doc that I'm a recovering addict )

If anyone can suggest a good taper from 8mg for me I would be happy to consider it. I guess a bit of history of why I'm here and on suboxone would probably be helpfull.

I have been addicted to Oxycontin since 2003 starting at a low dose 10 - 30 mg a day, by the end of it I was taking between 6 & 8 80's a day. It took me a long time to admit my addiction to my doctor but it was the best thing I ever did.

I would like to take this time and thank everyone for sharing their experiences on this site, it has made a huge impact on my recovery, I guess knowing that I'm not alone in this is comforting although I also wish that no one would ever have to go through this as well.

I know that getting off Sub is one thing, the real challenge lies after that, but I'm sure that once I feel my feet back on the ground and back in charge of the path that I travel, I will be able to look back and learn from my mistakes.

Thank you all

Here's the latest on my taper progress. I took:

.15 for 1 day

.12 for 1 day -----Felt fine both days, slept well but had fairly moderate sweating near morning.

.10 for 1 day -----Some chills, off and on during the day. Had a few mood swings today, but exercised and ate well.

and .09 Today ---I had some chills this morning and my skin felt hot until around noon.

My general plan is to decrease by .01/day while I allow the half-life to wind down a bit. I am going to try to be patient.
Only a week or two left!!

AM

A quick update:

Things were going so well that I went to 1.6 mg quicker than anticipated. I had slight WDs occasionally throughout the week but it was easily tolerated. On Monday I will be starting 1.4 mg. If that's not enough I will go up to 1.5.

At this rate I should be ready to come off in half the time I expected. I think what I will end up doing, though, is just take the Suboxone until I run out. Even if it takes a year I will keep tapering lower and lower until I just run out. That way, maybe I can even escape much of the PAWS that I hear so much about (I've never been off opiates long enough to experience that since I started about 5 years ago).

I hope everything is well!

P.S. An alternative to the liquid method that allows you to actually take your dose to work/school is to just weigh out your dose. Get a milligram scale for a hundred dollars or so off eBay and use that. Yes, those scales are cheap and crappy but they should be accurate within +/- 0.002 g. For example, a Suboxone weighs 394 mg. So, if you wanted to take 1 mg of buprenorphine, you would just weigh out 49 mg. If you wanted to take 0.1 mg just weigh out 5 mg of the pill (this will give you an idea of how minuscule 5 mg is. Imagine how .1 mg would look. Hint: often you can't see it with the naked eye). This is likely not as accurate as the liquid method but I doubt it would make a significant difference as long as you know how to use the scale well.

I'm going to take my Subs to the lab next week and weigh them down to the 0.00001 g (using an 'analytical balance'). Don't expect to just get one of those, though. I found a 30 year old one on eBay (used) and it was still several hundred dollars. Cheap milligram SCALES (there's a huge difference between a scale and a balance) are VERY cheap on eBay though.

Cat,
Glad to hear you are doing so well!! It sounds like you are handling the reductions just fine. That's good news. You may very well escape PAWS. I have detoxed many times, but only experienced it twice in my life: once coming off morphine, and the other, 2mgs of Sub via Naltrexone.

Here's the latest on my taper progress. I took:

.09 for 1 day

.08 for 1 day -----Felt pretty good both days. Had some chills (off and on) during the morning. Slept well, but had night sweats.

.07 for 2 days ----- Still having chills, sneezing throughout the day and feeling a little tired in the afternoons, so I added an extra day at this amount.

Tomorrow, I'm trying out .06mgs. Unfortunately, even at these low dose amounts, I can still feel the reductions. I find the skin-crawling/chills to be highly annoying (my most HATED detox symptom), but that's really the only symptom I am having during the day. No depression, anxiety or GI problems. Overall, still easier than equivalent reductions from higher amounts.

AM

Arrrrggghh!!!! My whole post just dissapeared. Noooooo!!!

Everything is going fine... a little tired sometimes, but that's about it.

annmarie - Wonderful to hear that you're doing well. If you need to take some comfort meds, take them. No harm!

Check back soon.

Hey Kids, here's where my taper gets interesting:

I took

.06 on Sunday -----Felt pretty good, sneezing a little and still having chills off and on during the morning. If I exercise, they go away for the rest of the day. I slept well but had fairly moderate sweating near morning. I have been getting up very early, like 3-5am.

.014 on Monday (A third of my daily dose, and a decrease from yesterday) -----Chills in the morning, but by noon I started feeling much better. I skipped my 2nd dose, just to see what would happen/how sick I would get. To my surprise, I continued to feel even better. So then I skipped my 3rd dose, and still had no WD. I felt comfortable, peaceful, happy. I took 1/6th of a Benzo (They really knock me out, I just don't need any more than that.) I slept well but still had light sweating near morning.

Today/Tuesday: No Sub for 30 hrs -----No chills, no sweating in weird places, not freezing anymore. I sneezed once this morning, but I still feel warm, relaxed, joyful.

So...I don't really know what's happening, but it's been over 30 hours since my last dose, and I've continued to feel awesome. I promise: I have MONTHS of Sub in my closet (YEARS if taking .06/day). If I needed any, I'd take it, as I had planned on another week or two of skipping days anyway.

I have a theory:
Could it be possible that my doses became so low at some point that they were no longer orally bioavailable? I wondered why my chills weren't going away even after I'd dosed. I just thought it was the half-life leftovers coming out from prior doses.

And this past week, I did have a day or two where I thought I was "feeling that last decrease" a little more than usual. (That was the day I posted I almost had to take a Benzo, but it only lasted 4-5 hours, then the WD disappeared.) Could that have been my detox? I mean, it was so mild and short, I didn't even realize it was happening. Is it possible to "accidentally detox" yourself without noticing it? Even when you know it's coming and you are anxiously expecting it? Even though you are reminded of it with every WD symptom? Complete miracle. For the 4-5 days since then, I continued to take even less- yet I kept getting better every day. I mean, I feel 90% normal already: all peppy and walking around smiling.

Even though I had plenty of comfort meds around, I only took 1/6th of a Benzo (last night) and about 10 Advil during the ENTIRE two month taper. You all know how we LOVE to take things, especially when it's justified, but I really didn't need to. That has NEVER been the case before, and I've detoxed at least 25 horrible times in my life. I'm all about taking enough comfort meds to "sleep right through it." I never even touched the Benadryl. Geez!

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas about what's going on, please post back. I can't really explain it, but yesterday morning, I had this "Aha!" moment where I sort of felt like I didn't need to take any more Sub. Very strange. Like maybe it was my body telling me it wasn't getting anything anyway, so why bother? I'll check in later, hopefully with good news. I have a full day of biking and shopping to do.

AM

Wow Annemarie!! That is fantastic! I'm so glad you're feeling so well! I agree with you on the wondering really how much bup you've been actually getting with your tiny doses. I think your theory is entirely possible.....maybe for you that little dose wasn't really having much of an impact because you just truly weren't absorbing it. I believe that it's possible that we all absorb and metabolize drugs differently enough to make a big difference. For example, back when I still using full-agonists, I could have a 'clean' urine drug screen in as little as 36 hours whereas others would take as long as 3 - 5 days. I've always been curious about that. I know there are a lot of variables that come into play like hydration status, liver and kidney function and so forth. I don't know....I wonder.
I've also wondered about my absorption of buprenorphine. I see others talk about dissolving their pills in their mouth for an hour, yet mine is dissolved in just a few minutes no matter what method I try. It just makes me wonder also how much of the medication I'm actually getting compared to others. Then I find myself thinking, "well, I'm taking 2mg but maybe I'm really only getting 1mg." Questions which probably do not have answers!
In any case, what you feel is what you feel....no denying that! I suppose you will know soon enough. If, in fact, you were getting the tiny dose you have been taking, perhaps because of the long half life you've still got just enough in your system that the w/d symptoms haven't truly set it. Surely if it's going to happen, it will within the coming day or so. Here's hoping you're done!! If not.....no biggie.....just go back to your original plan and taper a bit more. But this is fantastic!
Thank you again ever so much for posting your 'saga' for us!

Hi SetMe,

You posted:

"If, in fact, you were getting the tiny dose you have been taking, perhaps because of the long half life you've still got just enough in your system that the w/d symptoms haven't truly set it."

Yeah, that was my first guess, too. I always expect there's no "easy off" with detoxes.

Although I remain suspicious/cautious, I started coming up with other theories because of the unusual change in my tapering. I was following the same schedule every time, but my outcome was suddenly different: My WD felt a little heavier than usual around a week ago, lagged for a few days, then every day I started to feel better overall. If I were taking the same dose every day, then I would've thought I was becoming more stable at that particular dose. However, I cut my doses by 20% every day during that time (twice as fast as my regular decreasing schedule), and my WD symptoms faded out. Until finally, I stopped taking it altogether (been almost 36hrs now) and I don't have a single WD symptom. That's when I thought maybe I had already been detoxing, and now I'm on the upswing. I don't even have high blood pressure. Whenever I've quit/reduced/skipped Sub in the past, I have always felt at least some WD with the first 12-24 hours.

But, then I always seem to come back to agreeing with what you said, SetMeFree: There's no rule book. We're all different. It'll be a few more days until I know for sure... I know people rarely escape detoxes. But a girl can dream...

AM

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you guys know that I tapered down to 12.5 micrograms (yeah, I'm aware that's a crazy low dose) and haven't taken any sub this week. Nothing really to speak of at this point - maybe a bit tired in the morning, but otherwise I feel better than ever. I did miss one day of exercise because of the rain, but no problems there either.

You know, I tried over and over to taper off Oxycontin before I started taking Suboxone, but it just wasn't happening... no way, no how. Why the drug manufacturers don't market buprenorphine in a liquid form for those who wish to taper is beyond me. It just makes sense, if you can accurately control your dose and so decrease by whatever amount is comfortable for you, and improve on your diet and exercise, you will heal over time so you don't have to go through what seems like unending hell. Anyway, I'm just glad this medication exists at all. Gotta get back to work!

I'll check in periodically to let you know what's what.

"I've also wondered about my absorption of buprenorphine. I see others talk about dissolving their pills in their mouth for an hour, yet mine is dissolved in just a few minutes no matter what method I try. It just makes me wonder also how much of the medication I'm actually getting compared to others. Then I find myself thinking, "well, I'm taking 2mg but maybe I'm really only getting 1mg." Questions which probably do not have answers!"

The only way to truly know your own half-life and absorption factors is to take blood samples at different times after taking (and during absorption of) your dose. 0.012 mg diluted in your blood is an unimaginably low concentration. For example, .012 mg is 12 μg (micrograms). That is 12,000 ng (nanograms). Usually, blood concentrations are measured in ng/mL or ng/L. I think the average female has about 4.5 L of blood. 12,000ng/4.5 L = 2667 ng/L or 2.667 ng/mL! And that doesn't even take into account the fact that buprenorphine dissolves somewhat in lipids (whether or not this makes a big difference I'm not sure). So, if for some reason you lost a liter of blood there would only be .0026 mg of buprenorphine in it.

I think you have probably reached the point to where the amount of bupe. you are taking is pharmocologically/physiologically insignificant. If what I remember is correct--that 0.3 mg of bupe. is "equivalent" to 30 mg of morphine--then .012 is similar to 0.36 mg of morphine!

I have a really good feeling that you are done.

Hey Everyone!!

Well, it's been 60 hours since my last dose of .014 (14 micrograms). And still nothing's happening. I slept like a baby last night without taking anything, sneezed twice this morning, and felt a little chilly (but it is in the upper 50s here). I ate a big breakfast, rode my bike to the grocery store (3 miles), hauled everything back home (uphill, and naturally it began to rain), ate some more, hot shower, and now I'm about to tackle the laundry.

In a nutshell, I still feel good. I'm not sweaty or restless, but I am a little foggy. I found myself standing in the middle of the room, just staring into space... I even think there was "background music" playing in my head. So I made myself stand there until I remembered what I was trying to do. After a while, I just started giggling. And I never did remember why I was there. (Note To Self: Don't do anything of relative importance today.)

Bronze, yeah, on full agonists, I NEVER remembered thinking, "I just don't feel like I want to take any more, so I'm just gonna taper down and quit." You're right, I wouldn't have stood a chance. Tapering down and staying off never worked. Sub is an intelligent solution, for sure. Glad to hear you are feeling good. So I'm guessing your "jump" experience has been as easy and temperate as mine so far? This makes all that tapering worth it, huh?

I'll post back soon, but so far so good. Up next: Day 3...

AM

Well, it's been 86 hours since my last dose (bottom of Day 4).

I slept almost 10 hours last night, having only light sweats near morning. I woke up feeling fine.

WD symptoms: I sneezed twice, and still wanted to take a nap. So I guess I'm tired or having a little fatigue.

I've been very productive today, and I haven't felt this physically normal since mid February when I started my taper. I feel upbeat, calm, and finally warm (and dry) all over. I am planning to go to dinner tonight to celebrate.

Since my WD has lessened and I have felt progressively better since Monday, I am fairly confident I am beyond any discomfort. Although tomorrow's only Day 5, so we'll see.

AM

I was thinking about something... This is probably an oversimplification but fascinating. At 2.667 ng/mL that means there are approx. 3.4 trillion buprenorphine molecules per mL (or cc, cm^3, etc...) of blood. That's about 1.5*10^16 molecules total. If the half-life "theory" worked perfectly--meaning that every ~37 hours half of what was in the blood was eliminated--it would take about 54 half-lives for every single molecule to be removed (83 days). I wonder how close to reality this is. These half-lives have their roots in the rate equations of statistical kinetics and in nearly ideal reaction conditions these half-lives work very well (statistically) down to the very last of the molecules/atoms.

The only problem is the staggering complexity of the human body (and organisms in general). I wonder if it still works that way in the end even considering all the factors.

What do you think?

Also, don't let this alarm you. 3.4 trillion sounds like a lot but it's really not when it comes to atoms and molecules. Each cell in your body contains about 200 trillion atoms (and there are trillions of cells in your body).

Bottom of Day 6 (almost 130 hours since last dose)

Well, nothing really happened. I feel quite good, slept all through the night, no sweating or chills. I didn’t need a nap yesterday either, so that’s an improvement. Basically, I think I’m done!

I’ve had some terrible detoxes, and a really lengthy/intense WD from Sub before (jumped from 2mgs: mistake!). But this tapering process was completely different!! No big crash at the end. It just fizzled out. No big deal. I wouldn’t have missed a day of work or obligation.

The moral to my story? It IS entirely possible to stop using Sub without suffering an uncomfortable, never-ending, mortifying detox.

I hope my experience will help relieve some of the anxiety of quitting. I absolutely promise that if you are patient, and taper to a very low dose, you will have an easy, uneventful jump. It’s a hop, really. You can totally do it!

I’ll post soon with an update, but pm me if there are any questions I haven’t answered. Thanks everyone, for supporting me during the taper. And especially, a big Thank You! Laughing

to Diary of a Quitter, without whom all of this would never have been possible.

AM

Congratulations!

I am already down to 1.2 mg. I sneeze a little each morning (I have never been a "multiple sneezer" but now I sneeze like 10 times in a row each morning) and if I forget to take my dose by nighttime I feel pretty bad but, so far so good.

I think that even if I had to stop right now I might be able to do it. If coming off ~1 mg is half as bad as 2 mg then it would definitely be doable but I still don't know if I could resist "just getting a couple of percocets to sleep".

An update - it's been two weeks since my last dose of Suboxone and I feel super.

I had the expectation prior to jumping that I would experience a very low degree of PAWS for 2 1/2 to 3 weeks beginning on day 4. What actually happened was quite different - I felt fine for the first 3 days, then a little under the weather (a bit tired, but no depression, GI issues, sweating, nausea, restless legs, etc.) on days 4 & 5, bouncing right back on day 6 and feeling great since then.

A big thanks to Dr. Junig for creating and maintaining this site. And thanks again to everyone who offered their support... particularly annmarie for being patient enough to listen to me while I relentlessly bent her ear, and DiaryofaQuiter for having been the first to show that the liquid taper method was a viable option. You guys rock!

I'll check back in a few weeks, and try to stop by at least once a month thereafter. If anyone has any questions about my taper, please feel free to send a PM anytime.

Take care, and best of luck to all of you.

Bill

It's great to hear that you are doing so well! Obviously it's one hell of an inspiration to many of us out here. Although I am nowhere near ready to stop Bup at this point, I certainly hope that day will arrive at some point. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people on here that stop Bup and then continue to post and let us know how things are going. I really hope that you will continue to post for us. In fact, if you are able, more than once a month would be greatly appreciated - perhaps once a week? I am very certain that there are many readers that would love to hear how things honestly go for you over the next months and perhaps year or two. The more you can let us know - the better off we all will be for it. Please don't think that coming back to post that "everything is going well" is boring or somehow not useful. It is extremely useful! On the other hand, if things should not go as well as you hope, that will be just as important. In fact, whatever the honest truth is will be greatly appreciated!

I wish you the best of luck as you continue addiction-free. Please don't become a stranger.

Thanks DonH!

I am a little amazed myself that it wasn't a hassle to finally jump! Here's an update:

Days 7-10: I felt tired, sneezed a few times during the day, had some chills in my upper arms (but only in the mornings), and did feel a little depression. Nothing like the typical "Impending Doom, Where is my life going?" depression, though. Commercials weren't making me cry like during a regular opiate detox.

Days 11 and 12: The slight malaise has lifted, and I am not as tired anymore. I sleep through the night without any weird sweating. My appetite has been back for over a week, I am able to eat anything I want, and drink coffee without feeling wired. Every now and then I suddenly think, "Oh, did I take my Sub?" And then I smile...and think about how nice it is to not have that worry anymore. Those thoughts are not cravings, but merely a conditioned response since taking it was such a habit for so long. In fact, I forgot how many days it had been since jumping, and I had to get out the calendar.

So I guess I am moving forward in my life now, and will probably look into some type of after care. Not because I feel like I may relapse, but because I know from past experience that it will greatly increase my chances of staying sober. So I am going to do it anyway. I'll keep posting, too.

Thanks again everyone! For all your support!!
AM

Wow Annemarie your posts are so great thank you so much i feel so much more capable and strong after reading your taper. I have just recently started my taper, have a ways to go at 4mg a day now, but i have been scared to death. i have wanted to taper for a long time and have been so petrified by the horrible withdraws stories that i had convinced myself i should just keep on trucking at 8mg a day. Reading your posts has given me the courage and strength to continue moving forward with my recovery and i know that i can and will be able to successfully taper off suboxone soon. Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Best wishes to you in your continued journey of recovery.

Went from 1.2 to 1 mg last week. I felt pretty bad 2 of the days and had to take an extra 0.1 mg. Instead of going to .08 next week I might go to .09. I might stay at 1 mg, though, because finals are next week. It all depends. So far so good though.

A couple of people asked if I would post more frequently about my situation, so I'm checking in a little earlier than I had originally planned.

It's been 3 weeks since I took my last dose of Suboxone and everything is going great. My nose has been running these past few days, but I do have allergies and the pollen count in my area is very high. My right shoulder was bothering me a little bit one day last week too, but again, that's to be expected due to all the soft tissue damage that I've sustained throughout the years, as well as the surgeries to correct some of those problems. What I'm really getting at is... these minor issues have nothing at all to do with my jump, and everything to do with living life the way I did prior to abusing opiates. I actually feel much better than I've felt in many years, including the period of time when I 'was' taking the oxycontin as prescibed - probably because of the diet and daily exercise - so, no complaints there. Mentally I seem to be operating at 100% - I haven't experienced any depression or confusion. I've been getting a lot of things done that I had been meaning to do for a long time, but never seemed to find the time or have the energy to tackle. On the rare occasion that I do think back to when I was in active addiction, I always make it a point to remember just how bad things were and how far I've come. No thoughts of using whatsoever - it's obviously not an option, and at the risk of repeating myself, no amount of mental gymnastics will allow me to rationalize that I could somehow be in control of the situation if I 'was' using again.

So that's about it. I'll be sure to check back as frequently as I possibly can.

Take care everyone!

Thanks for the update and I'm glad you're doing so well! That's fantastic! I want to put up a big bold post sometimes on the other sites I hear about that are so anti-Sub.......Look here people......it can and has been done.....people can get off bupe without some big crazy horror story! You just have to be committed and patient!
_________________
You can't undo anything you've already done, but you can face up to it. You can tell the truth. You can seek forgiveness. And then let God do the rest.

I try to stay away from those sites because all they do is get me fired up. It's the same old story over and over - "Suboxone is horrible... the doctor got me hooked... I should have just tapered off my doc... the withdrawals are the worst, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"! Yeah right, they should have kept on shooting up, stealing for a fix, risking their lives, their relationships and their freedom rather than take a daily maintenance dose of sub. Reading that drivel makes me want to bang my head against a wall until I knock myself out.

Anyway, thank you very much for the kind words. It means a lot to me.

Hi everyone- I am going to try a taper soon. This is the only taper plan I have come across.
If I understand you correctly you started by taking an 8mg tab to get 800mcg. or as you said.8mg.
Why did you no just get the 2mg taps, and cut them in half, then do liquid taper on the 2 mgs when you go down low?
The other thing that really strikes me as bizarre. Why is there no formal dosage schedule provided by the pharmaceutical industry? Has Dr. Junig (who has commented positively on this liquid method) ever asked the company why they do not provide a taper series of tabs? If he has what is their answer? Even with methadone, there is encouragement to taper down and the availablitly to taper to micro doses. Since suboxone is in the same maintenance category why is there no small dose available? I wish Dr. Junig could provide an answer.

Something I recently found out. There are doctors that have access to generic buprenorpine in low doses.
It is not likely that any doctors are gong to prescribe the new generic buprenorphine 2 mgs that are now available because of the problem of IV use. Some doctors though are detoxing using smaller doses of the bup that is available now.
From what I understand the doses are in the mcg range. ie below 1 mg. I am going to a doctor that is one of the first to concentrate on pulling people off of Suboxone.
Needless to say- he is being scared by the company because he is forced to use generic, since Suboxone (but+nor) is only available as low as 2mg.

It may be a ray of hope for those that want off.
_________________
Think before