----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sun May 24, 2009 3:48 am Liquified Suboxone Taper Method: So Far, So Good ----------------------------------- A while back, Dr. Junig brought up (on his blog) one of the problems with tapering off Suboxone - the fact that you can't get pills in low enough doses to taper comfortably. He suggested a way around this problem: dissolve the Suboxone pills in a small amount of water so that you can measure out smaller doses and taper in smaller increments. Since I'd been "stuck" at about 1mg of Sub/per day for a while, and every time I tried to start skipping days between doses I got sick, I thought I'd give it at try. This is what I did: I crushed an 8mg pill and dissolved it in 10 ml of water, so every 1ml of water would contain .8 mg (800mcg) of Suboxone. This was a reduction of .2mgs (200mcg) of Suboxone from the dose I was taking at the time. I used an oral syringe that meaured in mls (available at pharmacies, used for measuring kid's cough syrup, etc.) to dose myself with a half a ml in the morning and half a ml at night. I know Dr. J is big on the one dose per day thing, but my doctor ok'd the 2 times a day because I have chronic pain issues and it works better for me that way. I keep the solution in an empty pill bottle in the fridge so it doesn't get funky. I kept the amount of water low so that the solution would be fairly concentrated, and it works really well. The dose does seem to hit me a lot faster than when waiting for a pill to dissolve though, which caught me off guard at first. As always, I am shocked at how strong a drug Suboxone is. Even at .4mgs per dose, I can definitely feel it when I take it. So that was 10 days ago. I took my last dose of that solution today, and I will make up a new solution tomorrow. I'm thinking of using the same amount of water but only 6mgs of Suboxone, which will be a reduction of .2mgs again. The drop from 1mg to.8mg produced only the mildest symptoms, some restlessness and a little irritability. Much better than what I was dealing with trying to go from 1mg a day to 1mg every other day. Other things that have helped are hot baths, swimming, exercise generally and keeping myself distracted. The less I think about it the better off I am. I've noticed that when I read other people's withdrawal experiences I feel worse. Hmm... So I'll keep this thread posted with my progress. If anyone else has tried this method I'd love to hear from you too. For the record, I started treatment with Sub in October of 2007, so I've been on it for a little over 1.5years. The last 6 months I've been on 2 mgs and then 1mg for the last 2 months or so. So far, this seems like the best taper method for a soft landing. Wish me luck. ----------------------------------- suboxdoc Sun May 24, 2009 10:28 am ----------------------------------- I haven't ever used the technique-- only read about it-- so I can't totally vouch for it. Thanks for trying it out in a 'public' way-- I wish you the best with your efforts! ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sun May 24, 2009 3:52 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, I know you didn't try it - but I think you had someone email you who had tried it, is that right? Anyway, it seemed like a good idea. I think you suggested making a 10% reduction every two weeks or so. I'm running out of time, so I'm going a little faster than that. Still it's been much better than skipping days or trying to break a 2mg pill into quarters. I would put that little speck of pill in my mouth and it would vanish. The small doses dissolved in water work better. The only thing is that I haven't told my doctor what I'm doing. He's pretty cool, but this situation might be a bit much for him to sign off on. I don't like keeping secrets, but he has limited experience in this area - he told me he hasn't had a patient successfully stop taking Sub. I'm hoping that I'll be able to do this, and then tell him after the fact so that maybe he'll let other patients know about it. It sucks to still feel like I can't be open with my doctor after 18 months of perfect compliance. Bah. You know what, I'm going to tell him. I have an appointment on Tuesday, and he's already written my prescription with refills for the rest of my insurance coverage, so there really isn't much he can do even if he fires me, which I don't think he would do. Hopefully he'll be able to respect my honesty. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Tue May 26, 2009 3:39 pm Day Two of .6mgs (600mcgs) ----------------------------------- I am on my second day of .6mgs, down from the .8mgs that I was taking for the last 10 days. Yesterday was ok, I was just a little grumpy but I went for a long walk with my daughter and felt much better. Today I woke up with chills and a runny nose and a little achy but that went away about 15 minutes after I dosed. I'm feeling kinda lethargic so I'm going to get off the computer and go for a swim. Swimming is the best - I have fibromyalgia and swimming doesn't hurt my body any more than it already hurts - exercise I have found for allievating the tapering symptoms. Motivating to do it is the only issue. I just have to remember there's a hot tub waiting for me after I work out. :lol: I've now been doing this liquid taper for almost 2 weeks, and so far it's WAY better than my doctor's suggested method, which was to start dosing every other day. That put me on what felt like a roller coaster and the w/d symptoms were more pronounced, especially insomnia. Since starting this new method I haven't even needed my Clonidine prescription, so I'm saving it for the end when things might be worse. Just for the record, every reduction since I've gotten below 2mgs has had acute symptoms starting 2-3 days after the reduction and lasting up to 2 weeks. These are the achy legs, restlessness, irritablity, sleeplessness, runny nose, chills. Clonidine helped some of these - but the new taper method is gentler so these symptoms are less. There are other aspects of the taper that are longer lasting - lethargy, apathy, the return of fibro symptoms, fatigue. It's hard for me to tell what of these is withdrawal and what is my fibro or my depression. I've had to make adjustments in my life to cope with these symptoms, and while they are a pain in the ass, they are not unbearable. Reminding myself that it's not forever, this is not the worst I've ever felt, and keeping a positive outlook helps me get through it. So has adjusting my expectations of what this period of my life is going to be like. At this point I absolutely do not regret going on Suboxone. Sub helped me save my life. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Thu May 28, 2009 2:14 am Day Three - .6mgs ----------------------------------- Finally, today is over! I had some w/d symptoms, but they were still pretty mild. I went to work, which actually helped by distracting me from myself. My legs were achy this morning but a hot bath helped that tremendously. My stomach was upset so I got myself a tasty smoothie with extra protien and B vitamins. I drank tea and tons of water all day and just tried to pace myself. The best thing is this growing sense of confidence that I Can Do This. Today, a lot of it was mind over matter: when I started feeling like this is too hard I was able to talk myself out of going there. Another bonus to this tapering method is that even at this low of a dose, I can still split my dose and take half in the am and half at night. That was just not possible when I was taking a quarter of a 2mg pill. Even if I could cut it that small, it seemed like the pill/dust just washed away in my mouth before it had a chance to work. Being able to take a small dose at night cuts down on insomnia and the twitchy leg thing that likes to start up as soon as I get comfy in bed. And since I used the same amount of water to make the solution this time I don't feel like I'm taking less. Psychological, I know, but whatever works. I know this is a really navel-gazy thread, but writing it out helps me in various ways, and hopefully my experience will also be able to help someone else through a taper as well. Tonight I'm hoping that the next few days will be similar to today and then I'll start feeling better. Once I feel close to normal again it will be time to do this all again. I should be well practiced by the time I get to zero. :wink: ----------------------------------- Ralph123 Thu May 28, 2009 3:12 am ----------------------------------- hi, im relly interested in this method...i been stuck on about 1 or 2 mg of sub for about 3 months and really have had trouble skipping days too and i cant really cut a 8mg pill into .5mg fragments.....so all you do is drop a sub into water measured the dose and then just swallow it? ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Thu May 28, 2009 6:13 am No, Don't Swallow! ----------------------------------- Hi Ralph - I know how you feel about being stuck aroung 1mg. Ugh. To do what I'm doing you need a small container (I use an empty pill jar) and an oral syringe that measures in ML. If you're at 1mg and want to go down to .8mgs, you can crush an 8mg pill and dissolve it in 10ml of water. Then each 1ml has .8mgs of Suboxone in it. Measure out your dose with they syringe and squirt it under your tongue. Hold it there for like 10 minutes or so, and don't drink or eat for 20 minutes after you swallow or spit it out. You're still taking it sublinqually, it's just liquified already. I use 10ml of water because it makes the math easy and also becasue I like to split my dose and take half in the morning and half at night. So I take a half ml each time, which is only a few drops of liquid under the tongue and works quite well. I tried taking the whole 1ml dose at one time and thought it was a bit too much liquid - so if you're going with a once a day dose you might want to adjust accordingly. I did 10 days at .8mgs and then went down to .6mgs. Same process, but I only used 3/4 of an 8mg pill in 10ml of water this time. Next drop will be to .5, then .4, .3, .2, .1...and then I guess I'll be done. Not sure if I'll try to space doses out or not, guess it depends on how I feel. I don't know anyone else who's done this method, it was just a suggestion that I thought sounded good. I recommend trying it. I tried to go from 1mg to .5 by dosing 1mg one day and then .5 the next...and that was much harder. The theory is, the longer and slower you do the taper, the softer the landing. Oh, and get down as low as possible before jumping off. Hope you get unstuck! ----------------------------------- Faith_8472 Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:51 pm Taking Advice Also ----------------------------------- Since the doc is cutting me down to 1mg this month, I know that half will be here before ya know it so it is nice reading this. Hope it is still working for you!! Thanks again! :) ----------------------------------- stregol Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:41 am ----------------------------------- Diary, How are you doing? I hope all is going good and that you're close to succeeding. I have a question for you if you don't mind. Since you've been on this taper, are you of the opinon that it's better to go through withdrawals slowly, having them last longer but being less intense, as opposed to doing it cold turkey: tapering down to 1mg and stopping it abruptly? Using the latter method, withdrawals still last a (relatively) long time, so I'm assuming that with the taper method you'll be in mild withdrawals for the duration of the taper, and then you'll go through an additional withdrawal period while your body slowly fixes itself and gets used to being on no medication. Thus, wouldn't it be harder to go through a prolonged, albeit milder, withdrawal period rather than a shorter one? The reason I'm asking this is because I've always toughed out the worst part of the wd's (3 attempts at quitting so far - each time trying harder than the last). My last attempt at stopping Suboxone lasted a month and a half. Then, although the wd symptoms were much milder than they had ever been, I gave up because I couldn't face another day at work in that state. I mean that general feeling of mild pain and uncomfortableness that lingers on after any withdrawal. I just couldn't give work all my attention if I was not comfortable in my own skin. One day I just gave up and took 0.5mg of Suboxone in the morning to help me get through the day. My junkie self rationalised that I'll only be taking it when really needed. But as we all know, that ends up being everyday. Thus, from experience I'd say that it's not the intensity that causes me to relapse, but rather the duration of Suboxone withdrawals. ----------------------------------- Matt2 Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:30 pm ----------------------------------- I think it's really great that your taking the time to share your success with the rest of us Diary. If I decide to taper off I'll definately use your technique. Will definately be hoping for your continued success in tapering off completely. Hang in there :wink: ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:36 pm ----------------------------------- Hi stregol - Thanks for your comment. I tried to stop Sub from 2mgs and 1mg before and it wasn't happening. I also tried going from 1mg to 1mg every other day and that didn't work either. When I tried breaking the 2mg pills into .5mg bits, it seemed like the Sub washed away in my mouth before it ever got into my bloodstream. Trying to do all of the above made me feel worse than I wanted to feel - I can't really take much time off to just deal because I have a job and a kid. The way I'm doing the taper now, I don't feel sick all the time. I drop my dose about every 10 days or so. For the first 2-3 days after the drop I'm fine, then comes about 3 days of very mild irritability and achyness, then I'm fine again for the next 4 or 5 days depending. So I'm usually only feeling slightly bad for a few days with at least a week of feeling normal in between. I've also noticed that if I work out consistently, even when I really don't want to, I feel my withdrawal a lot less. I'm hoping that doing it this way, going down incrementally and very slowly, giving my brain time to recover and adjust between each reduction will help my natural endorphin system recover a bit before I totally stop. It seems to me this is the best chance of avoiding or at least reducing paws. Believe me, if I just felt protractedly sick during this whole process, I'd probably just jump from here. But I feel pretty good so it seems to be working. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:50 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the support Matt, I appreciate it. I haven't posted over here for a few days because I'm still holding at .6mgs - I decided to stay there for another 10 days - and I've been feeling pretty well. I try not to dwell on every little thing that's wrong with me - I've noticed that when I read really detailed accounts of other people's withdrawals I start to feel that way. So suggestable, huh? I'm doing good though. I had a couple of days that I forgot to take my night dose of Suboxone and I was fine, then I went back to the dose I was taking because I don't want to get all silly and rush things and screw up a good plan. ----------------------------------- stregol Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:39 pm ----------------------------------- I really do wish you all success, my friend. I hear you on the job, it makes things that much difficult. I mean, it's not like you can fake a month long illness or something. The 1mg every other day is the worst idea ever. Some people suggested it to me, and said that since bupe has such a long half-life I shouldn't feel a thing. Yeah, right. That lasted around a day. I'm really going to try this taper method out. The only difference is that I don't have much time available. I took as much time off as I could justify during August, and that's when it needs to happen. I've got until the 1st of August to go down to 0.2mg . Then after that I'll just jump. I hope it's possible. If not 0.2mg then at the very least 0.5. I'd assume that the detox would be much easier jumping off of 0.5 than it would be off 1mg. ----------------------------------- Bignmean Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:38 pm ----------------------------------- Its now july 8th what happened? ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:25 am ----------------------------------- Good lord, I am too lazy to keep my own taper thread updated. :lol: I had this realization today that I have only 12mgs of Suboxone left, and then I am done. To be totally honest, I'm a little scared, but my insurance and my financial situation are a good incentive to at least give this my best shot. My doctor thinks I'm ready, and most of the time I agree. I've been on .4mgs (400mcg) for the past 2 weeks. I feel the worst at night - I get a lot of headaches and I'm restless. I think this is because I now dose only in the morning, where before I was dosing twice a day. Also, I had chronic migraines before I was on Sub, and when I got on Sub my headaches were decreased quite a bit, so now that I'm on such a low dose maybe they're just back. Who knows. Still, I'm able to fall asleep without taking anything, so that's good. I have a scrip for clonidine that I haven't even filled yet. I just try not to dwell on it. I work really hard on keeping perspective. This is what I've been working toward all these months. Suboxone was a useful tool, and a sturdy crutch to lean on while I learned other ways to cope with physical and emotional pain. When I don't use those other tools, I pay the price in feeling shitty and out of control. That's a really good motivation to use them. Tomorrow I'm going to drop to .3mgs. I'll keep you posted. ----------------------------------- Bignmean Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:11 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks I think you should do what ever your comfortable with. ----------------------------------- hawker1 Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:53 pm ----------------------------------- Hey this thread is awesome...please keep keeping us updated! I am at 1 mg and trying to figure out the next step. I'll give this a shot. Can anyone tell me more about clonodine? Does your suboxone doc prescribe it? Also, am I the only one that feels like the docs don't know much about this drug really....? Mine just blows off every concern or thought I have and says it's psychological. He's kind of a jack ass but I don't feel like changing docs at this point. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:48 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the replies and support, yo. My sub doc does prescribe clonidine to me. It's a blood pressure medication, also used off-label for anxiety and opiate withdrawal. My doctor said that it calms the sympathetic nervous system, which controls blood pressure. The sympathetic nervous system is also responsible for some opiate withdrawal symtoms, which is why clonidine helps with withdrawal. For me, it helps with insomnia, chills, hot flashes, sweating, anxiety, constant yawning and restlessness (also that feeling like you're going to crawl out of your own skin.) I've only taken it a few times. The down side is it makes me groggy. Not the most fun feeling, but better than the alternative. I'll probably take it after I stop taking Sub completely. I was using it when I did reductions, but since I started the liquid method I haven't needed it. It sucks that your doctor just blows you off like that. I think there is a problem with the training that docs get for prescribing Suboxone, since so many people say their doctors are misinformed, uninformed or generally clueless and dismissive. I've lucked out I guess. My doctor is honest about his relative lack of experience but he is open and listens to what I have to say and if he disagrees he tells me why. On the other hand, a lot of our issues as addicts are psychological. Sometimes you just have to try to figure it out. If you disagree, tell your doctor. If it's something that's seriously bothering you, you might have to switch docs. I will keep posted. Nothing new to report today. ----------------------------------- Euphemism Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:38 am ----------------------------------- Hi Diary, Do you have a target date for when your taper will be finished? What dose do you plan to end with? ----------------------------------- hawker1 Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:05 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the quick reply! I've been on Sub for a year and this is the first time I've every posted on a site like this. Usually the blogs and stuff I find are old. It's cool that this one seems new and updated and people are still checking. It's good to hear from people going through the same thing...i just helps to know that what i"m experiencing is normal. My favorite quote from my doc is when he says, "the suboxone rep says....." . I'm a medical device rep and of course the suboxone rep says stuff like tapering is easy, it's all psychological, it doesn't effect sex drive, etc. That's why the pharmaceutical industry is crumbling. Anyway, love the liquid idea. I am taking a quarter in the AM and a quarter in the PM of a 2 mg pill and was starting to wonder what's next. Keep up the taper man, you can do it. ----------------------------------- hawker1 Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:28 pm ----------------------------------- Also, what does PAWS stand for? ----------------------------------- Euphemism Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:39 pm ----------------------------------- Also, what does PAWS stand for? Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. It starts within a week or two of the end of opiate withdrawal symptoms. The longer you have been on opiates the worse it tends to be, the longer the half-life of the opiate you have been using, the longer PAWS tends to last. Here's a link to a quick primer on PAWS: http://www.ehow.com/about_5038806_post-acute-withdrawal-syndrome-opiates.html? ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:38 pm ----------------------------------- Hi Diary, Do you have a target date for when your taper will be finished? What dose do you plan to end with? Good question Euph. I'm on .3mgs now (approximately, since I had to eyeball the pill fragments), and I have about 7 days worth of that solution left. My plan was to then go to .2mgs for 10 days, .1mgs for ten days, and then stop. I would still have 1mg left of Sub at that point. I have to kind of play it by ear though. If a reduction is too overwhelming because of life or hormones or whatever, I step back a little and give myself time to work through it. UPDATE I'm on .3 mgs and doing fine. I take my dose all at once in the morning now, have been for a few weeks. Every morning I have chills and yawn a bunch and my eyes tear up a bit. That goes away once I dose. My legs tend to get achy, but I also have fibro, so who knows. Today a long, hot bath worked that out for me. I'm still getting headaches later in the day, but not as bad as they were. Don't know if this is w/d related or not. Emotionally, things are strange. In some ways I feel like crap, but in other ways I feel better. Idle time seems to be the worst thing for me. If I'm forced to motivate by some external factor, I'm pretty much fine. Left to my own devices, I'm an apathetic lump. Time for self-discipline, I suppose. Thinking about signing up for massage therapy school. I also just finished my associates degree, so I could go for my chemical-dependency liscense. So I guess my advice for myself continues to be: Don't dwell on it, stay busy, try to keep moving forward. ----------------------------------- Euphemism Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:44 am ----------------------------------- My legs tend to get achy, but I also have fibro, so who knows. Today a long, hot bath worked that out for me. A jacuzzi works even better if you have access to one. ----------------------------------- OxyPatrick Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:55 pm Your method sounds great! ----------------------------------- Hey DOAQ - It sounds like you were on Suboxone for 1 1/2 years before starting your water taper. How much Suboxone were you taking in the very beginning? Like your first 6 months. The water taper sounds great btw! I will definitely be doing it when the time comes. How are you feeling today? Thanks, Patrick ----------------------------------- MACKENZY3376 Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:44 pm ----------------------------------- dear diary, (had to say that lol). if u dont mind -what state r u in? i wanted some info on ur associates degree and chemical dependancy license??? im in w.v. and i really want to go back to school. the only thing that interests me at this point is helping others deal with their issues with addiction. i would love to do counseling and have felt that way ever since rehab about 5 yeas ago. i cannot find any 2 year programs that are close to home they r all 4. i would much rather do 2 yr associates with some continuing education classes along the way-as i am 33 years old and would like to get this done as quickly as possible (yea we all want that instant gratification) and what exactly is a chemical dependancy license? i have never heard that term used before. any iformation u could give me would be helpful. glad ur on the right track :)-mackenzy ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:35 am ----------------------------------- Hey DOAQ - It sounds like you were on Suboxone for 1 1/2 years before starting your water taper. How much Suboxone were you taking in the very beginning? Like your first 6 months. The water taper sounds great btw! I will definitely be doing it when the time comes. How are you feeling today? Thanks, Patrick Hey Patrick - I started off at 14mgs for about a month, then 16 for about a month (after I flunked out of the Probuphine trial), and then I started tapering down. I was having too much sedation at the higher dose, nodding out in my car and whatnot. I think I stayed at 8mg for a couple of months and then the better part of the next year I stayed at 4mgs. I was down to 2mgs for a couple of months, and dropped to 1mg a few weeks before I started the water taper. I started the water taper in mid-May, so it's taken me 2 months to drop from .8mgs to .3mgs, painstakingly slow but so far I've successfully avoided most of the crappy withdrawal symptoms. Yay! I'm glad I could be the test subject for this method and I really hope my experience will be helpful someone. How am I feeling today? Suprisingly good. I had a couple of rough patches the past few days - just feeling really frustrated and angry over pretty trivial stuff. I kinda blew up and yelled and stomped around because of something pretty silly, and I was upset with myself for losing my temper and acting in a not-very-like-me way. But I realized that my frustration had been building all day, lots of small annoying stuff adding up, and I wasn't recognizing it. Also, I hadn't gotten any exercise and I'd been cooped up in a hot house with a hyper 7 year old. So, using my brand-new life management skills, I thought of some ways to deal. I took the kid to the park for a picnic and a hike, spent some time with friends, and presto, much better. I guess this was a very long-winded way of saying: I'm adjusting. Today I didn't have any weird emotional outbursts and was busy and productive all day. I was in a good mood at work, meditated this afternoon and have been hanging out with the family. I am ready for my kid to go to bed, however. :wink: Physically, I was totally fine today. I've been eating lots of fresh fruit and veggies and drinkng a TON of water, which has helped. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:28 am ----------------------------------- dear diary, (had to say that lol). if u dont mind -what state r u in? i wanted some info on ur associates degree and chemical dependancy license??? im in w.v. and i really want to go back to school. the only thing that interests me at this point is helping others deal with their issues with addiction. i would love to do counseling and have felt that way ever since rehab about 5 yeas ago. i cannot find any 2 year programs that are close to home they r all 4. i would much rather do 2 yr associates with some continuing education classes along the way-as i am 33 years old and would like to get this done as quickly as possible (yea we all want that instant gratification) and what exactly is a chemical dependancy license? i have never heard that term used before. any iformation u could give me would be helpful. glad ur on the right track :)-mackenzy Hi Mackenzy3376 - I live in WA, I got my AA degree from a community college. It's a transfer degree as I intend to eventually get my BA and hopefully go to grad school. In my state, you can become a licensed Chemical Dependency Professional (CDP) by earning an AAS in Chemical Dependency Counseling from a community college and then doing an internship. The AAS takes about a year to complete, and then the internship is a certain amount of supervised hours, I"m not sure how many, but you do get paid during that time. As far as I know, in my state that is the quickest way to get into a counseling job. Most other jobs require an MA at least. You should talk to the career counselors at your local CC and see what they say. And I know what you mean about wanting to get done. I'm 36 and it took me 5 years off and on to get my AA. Good luck. ----------------------------------- jlphillips24 Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:46 am ----------------------------------- Great Job DOAQ, You inspire me. This is my first time on the internet to look for support with my suboxone tapper problem. Yours was the first post I read and I find it kinda ironic that you have fibro, as fibro is what started my addiction problem to begin with. I've been taking suboxone since February and I'm so sick of it, I honestly wish I had just tried harder to stop the opiate addiction cold turkey, I feel like I just replaced it. I mean yes, the suboxone is much cheaper and I don't feel as much like a drug addict when taking it but I honestly can't stand it. I've tried and tried and I can't stop it. The withdraws are so bad, the cold chills and the restless legs are the least of my problems, the mood swings and depression are way more than I can handle, but the worst of the worst is the fibro, I feel like the withdraw symptoms from the suboxone aggravates the fibro so bad it's unbearable. As if the fibro fog isn't bad enough by it's self, but the suboxone + fibro fog can make you insane. I have considered using opiates to try and come off the suboxone, I just don't know what to do. I was wondering if you could tell me what your doing to control your fibro now that your coming off the suboxone. I was taking lyrica but my suboxone doctor took me off of it, said I couldn't take it with suboxone? :?: Thanks, Jen ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:48 pm ----------------------------------- Hi Jen - I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with your fibro. It's a really frustrating illness to be sure, and there's so little help for us. Suboxone actually helped me deal with my pain quite a bit. Not quite as well as full-agonist opiates, but enough to make it easier for me to focus my energy on making progress, rather than just getting through, if you know what I mean. I think it was better for me in the end to not have as much pain relief, because I got into a cycle where I would take opiates, then over-exert myself, feel worse, take more opiates, and presto - addiction! With Sub I was more aware of my pain level and could develop self-care plans accordingly. I don't know why your doctor said you can't have Lyrica with Sub. My Sub doctor was just talking to me about Lyrica today and he said the two are not contraindicated, which means you CAN take them at the same time. Maybe you should get a second opinion, especially if the Lyrica helps. I didn't really find it helpful, so I don't take it. Most of my fibro-management is behavioral stuff. I only work part-time, I try to maintain good sleep habits. I meditate, and part of my meditation practice is doing body-awareness scans. This keeps me in touch with what's going on so I can be proactive in dealing with pain before it gets out of control. I'll post a link to a guided body-scan meditation that I like at the end of this. I also practice yoga. Exercise is probably the most important thing that I do. I almost never want to do it, but I do it anyway. It took me a LONG time to figure out how to exercise in a way that wouldn't give me a flare-up. I have to think about how much I feel like I can do, and then do about half of that. Slow and gentle, regular exercise. The yoga I practice is Viniyoga, which is good for people with injury or some kind of limitation like FM. I take walks, I swim, and I do some strength training - but I have to be careful with how much I do. I take a hot bath or soak in the hot tub at the gym almost every day. This helps with the stiffness and pain. I try to eat lots of fresh fruit and veggies. When I'm in a bad flare, sometimes I can get it under control by cutting ALL sugar out of my diet for a week or two. I have minimized the amount of caffine I consume. I take a multi-vitamin and vitamin D supplements, and I drink quite a bit of green-tea (that's my caffiene). I recently started drinking Kombucha tea, which is nasty, but I think it's making me feel better. Mental attitude is also important. If I tell myself: "I can't deal with this pain, it sucks, it's not fair, etc," then I can't do it. I'll give up and sit on the couch all day. If I tell myself that I can deal, that it's hard but not impossible, then I do much better. When I wake up, I'm always in pain. I am stiff and moving just hurts. But I tell myself to just move around gently, soak in the bath, warm up, and in an hour or two my pain goes down quite a bit. It really is amazing what your body and mind can adjust to. When I first got diagnosed, I thought I would go crazy if someone, anyone, didn't take this pain from me. I couldn't complete a grocery shopping trip, couldn't walk around the block, I was so angry and sad. I had a really bad attitude about the whole thing, which is probably natural. Now I realize that I just have to learn to live with it, work around it, make peace with it in whatever way I can. I have to do the things that make me feel better, even if they don't make me feel pain-free. And I never give up hope that a better treatment will come along, or that I'll find a better doctor or that someday I won't have to struggle with it. Now I am almost done with Suboxone and at the tiny dose I'm taking I'm not getting as much pain relief. So I have to work harder to manage. I'm still better than I was though, so that's progress. ----------------------------------- jlphillips24 Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:57 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the advice. It's just going to be painful and I'm going to have to deal with it eventually. My health insurance does not cover the suboxone so I stopped going to the clinic some time back. I was receiving much more than I was taking so I filled several scripts and have been taking 4 mg since February. How is the liquid reduction going? Have you completely stopped the suboxone yet? Jen ----------------------------------- jlphillips24 Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the advice. It's just going to be painful and I'm going to have to deal with it eventually. My health insurance does not cover the suboxone so I stopped going to the clinic some time back. I was receiving much more than I was taking so I filled several scripts and have been taking 4 mg since February. How is the liquid reduction going? Have you completely stopped the suboxone yet? Jen ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:08 am ----------------------------------- I'm just bumping this up because there are always questions about how to taper succesfully. I am also working on some good news for y'all soon, but you'll have to wait a few more days. :D ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:03 am ----------------------------------- Taper is finished successfully - new thread here: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=717 ----------------------------------- johnsubs Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:07 am ----------------------------------- Genius!!!! Good thinking and that will keep your w/d's to a bare minimum! ----------------------------------- subjohn Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:26 am Re: Liquified Suboxone Taper Method: So Far, So Good ----------------------------------- I've noticed that when I read other people's withdrawal experiences I feel worse. Hmm... Me too! ----------------------------------- subchick Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:57 pm Re: diary of a quitter ----------------------------------- Hello, I am a Suboxone user, for 2 years now, who is now beginning the process of tapering off. I started taking the drug to help me after an addiction to Percocet and now, like many users, my body is addicted to this "non-addictive" drug. I also suffer from severe depression and some moderate pain in my back and neck. The last time I tried to quit Suboxone cold turkey I thought I was going to go crazy, couldn't sleep, horrible rstless legs, nausea etc.. My mom actually found your blog for me and I am now going to try the "solution" taper. I too am down to 1mg a day and as well found every other day to be rather unpleasant so I'm hoping this method will be more successful. I mixed a .6mg solution last night and will begin w/ it today. Thank you for your honest and innovative approach its given me hope that maybe I can stop being addicted to medications (w/in reason) ----------------------------------- gubulars Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:57 pm ----------------------------------- hey Subchick! Glad you came along and posted here... I might suggest that you start a thread for yourself and then we can add comments / suggestions for you there..then you can track your progress.. sometimes nice to come back here and re read our own posts and it keeps us remembering why we quit or starting to quit. Sounds like you're doing great and getting your dose down... yes you will start to notice some WD symptoms with tapering, but overall it will be a lot easier to deal with those day by day then just going cold turkey. I tried to do that 4mg and that was not going to happen. So keep us up to date and maybe post your own thread so we can add to it! Look forward to any kind of assistance / ideas! ----------------------------------- subjohn Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:29 pm ----------------------------------- yeah, and if a drop from 1mg to .6 is too much, try .9mg. That's actually what the doctor that hosts this site says to do, drop 10% every 2 weeks. May it go well for you. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:32 pm ----------------------------------- I just wanted to give this topic a bump. Diary of a Quitter's successful taper inspired me to make my own attempt using the liquid method. I've gone from 32mg about 3 months ago to .60mg today - probably a little faster than I should, but it really hasn't been that bad at all. I don't want to get too cocky though, because I know that I still have some big hurtles ahead, but so far, so good. Anyway, I've been going to the same clinic to get my Suboxone for about a year now. During each appointment, the doctor does an evaluation and writes a script - of course, that's after waiting for an hour or two in a small room packed with fifty or so other people. At first I went once a week, then every two weeks, then the doctor said I could come once a month. In December, the gentleman who runs and owns the clinic pulled me aside and said that I was going to have to start coming every two weeks instead of once a month. Now, I've had no dirty urines*, and the doctor thought it was in my best interest to come once a month... but he said that he's running a business (he has a new Mercedes, so I really don't think he's hurting) and he has to be solvent. He said "Why don't you be a team player and come every two weeks, ok?" When I asked if I had a choice, he said "No... maybe this program isn't right for you!" He's right about that, but he's also the only game in town. What a piece of work... but you know, I think that incident was the nudge I needed. Six months ago my head wasn't in the right place, but I think I'm ready now - ready at least to lower my dose if nothing else. Every once in a while, he'll come down to the basement and address the group with his wisdom and a little misinformation; he's quite fond of reminding us that he thinks everyone - no matter their history - should be on Suboxone for the rest of our lives. Last month he also made the statement that "Anyone who has taken an opiate for a two week period in their lives has permanently damaged their brains." Well, that was cathartic. Just blowing off a little steam and giving an update on my situation. I hope everyone is doing well, and I hope to read more about your own situations. *On three separate occasions he became testy and said that my urine was dirty. The first two times when I asked to see the urines, they were negative - he explained that it seems my body chemistry was different than most peoples and that it took longer to produce an accurate result. The third and last urine he said was dirty (he actually had me come into his office and chewed my out for a minute or so) turned out to be someone elses. He was adamant it was mine until I told him that I scratched my initials on the plastic cap - I had to fish my real urine bottle out of the trash barrel to prove it. ----------------------------------- SneakyElephant Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:41 pm ----------------------------------- Wow bronzebeta, that's some good doc you have there. This time next year he'll be driving his new Bentley GT at this rate. What a dirty dog. ----------------------------------- subjohn Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:56 pm ----------------------------------- That's horrible, bronzebeta. It's exactly that kind of vulnerability you're exposed to that makes me not want to be on Suboxone long term. That guy is flaunting his control over you and abusing it. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:18 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, he's a entrepreneur who's found a niche that he can exploit to make a lot of money - I know exactly what he gets paid per person and it's staggering when you add it all up. That's another reason why he shoehorns us in the building at night and the wait is so long. Also, I don't think I was clear enough in my post, but he actually has no medical training whatsoever; he owns the building and has the one doctor working part time for him. His mother (who looks and sounds like Betty Davis right before she passed away) mans the front desk taking cash, checks and credit cards. His daughter takes care of the medical records, and he calls the shots, not the doctor. Until last year he had four doctors working there, but he let the other three go. One of the doctors was a really sweet woman too. The last time I saw her she looked very agitated and told me that she "Had to go!" but wouldn't go into any detail. The thing that bothers me the most is that smirk on his face - it says, I've got you and there's nothing you can about it. I so want to go in there one day and tell him in front of the group that I don't need him or his medication anymore. In a way, he's worse than any drug dealer that I've ever met - taking advantage of decent people who find themselves in a bad way, and are just trying to get better. Ah well! You know what they say about karma. ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:04 pm Cotton/Filter Trick For Liquid Taper ----------------------------------- I am currently doing a slow, liquid taper. I am down to .5mgs once a day (I dose around noon). My current formula is .5mgs Sub = .25ml of liquid. The only problem is that sometimes the liquid would slip out into my mouth, and was difficult to hold under my tongue for 10 mins. So I came up with the idea of using the oral syringe to drop the Sub solution into a cut-in-half cigarette filter. The filter absorbs the liquid Sub, then sits on top of a plastic ziplock bag while it dries. I will make four of these filters at a time, each having my .5mg daily dose within them. It works really well, the Sub liquid is absorbed evenly. Just make sure your cigarette filter piece is large enough to hold all the liquid of each dose. You can experiment by squirting water on a filter piece to see how much it will absorb. I put the small piece of filter under my tongue once a day and it works every time. The filter stays in place--no slipping or sliding, and all the orange color (from the Sub) has disappeared after 10-20 mins. Then I spit it out. You can also use a small piece of cotton, but the cig filter is much more dense, and will absorb the Sub much better. In fact, you could even make up several pieces of filter and store them in a pill bottle after they've dried. It's really just a way of liquifying the Sub, then redistributing it into a "filter tablet" so to speak. I always worried about the liquid Sub mixture evaporating a little, making the liquid more concentrated, and my dose larger than I was aiming for. I hope this helps someone. If anyone has any improvements for this method, please please reply or PM me. I can use all the help I can get. Thanks for reading, AM ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:35 pm ----------------------------------- annmarie - Excellent suggestion! Many of us have been tenacious and very creative (for lack of a better word) in obtaining our drug of choice when we were in active addiction, so it's nice to see some of that spirit and ingenuity carry over when it comes time to do battle with our demons. Please keep us updated with your progress. My mixture has been 1mg per 1ml, which has been working pretty well. I've gone from 32mg to .6 in the last three months or so. I have some oral surgery scheduled in five days, so I'm going to hold off on my next drop till next week - wouldn't want to have a runny nose or break out in a sweat while the doctor is doing his thing. Good luck to you, and welcome to the Suboxone forum. ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:49 pm Liquid Taper Progress ----------------------------------- Thanks for the kind-hearted welcome. I feel so fortunate to have found this site! I just came up with the "dried-out Sub-soaked filter thing a week ago, but it works very very well. Especially since I'd get mentally worked up if I thought even a tiny bit of liquid crept out and didn't get absorbed. (You know how the addict mind plays tricks...LOL) I use 2mgs Sub per 1ml of liquid. I found that .25mls of liquid is the perfect amount to fit into the pieces of filter I have been cutting. I will continue to use the same .25mls on each filter for the the rest of my detox, but will decrease the amount of Sub I'm taking by adding in a little extra water each time I mix it up. They dry out in an hour or so, but I let them sit overnight just to be sure. It's great, you use the whole mixed up batch at once, so no evaporating/concentrating. Therefore, each filter I've prepared has an equal dose. No more "How much was in that last crumb?" guesswork. When you get down this low, the slightest miscalculation of a tenth of a milligram is enough to cause withdrawal symptoms. I can't handle the surprise WD rollercoaster. Currently, I'm stable on .5 mgs Sub/day, so my next concern is how low to go before I jump off, and how long do I need to stay at each incremental decrease. My body will be dictating that, but I do keep a chart so I can see my progress. Any and all advice is gratefully appreciated. Try it out and tell me what you think, or any improvements you can come up with. Like, maybe there's something better than a cig filter. I'll keep posting as I make more progress. ----------------------------------- Joe McPlumber Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:03 pm THANK YOU! ----------------------------------- I've been on 16mg Sub for five years, and had some seriously bad experiences notso much because of the Sub but because of people's ignorance and fear. I was sorta thinking to get off it because it crimps my style but it seemed impossible. Then owing to a bureaucratic snafu my script was delayed for almost half the month and i had to stretch what i had. I was amazed at how quickly and easily i tapered from 16mg to 6mg and held there, with only a bit of discomfort, and i began to have hope of tapering to nothing. Then i discovered how very powerful 6mgs of Sub actually is, and i lost hope again. These posts have restored my hope. No, better, they'e given me faith... i can do this. Thanks, Diary, for the liquid technique. And Annmarie that is an awesome innovation. You should patent it. ;) - joe ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:22 pm YOU"RE WELCOME!! ----------------------------------- Joe, You're Welcome! I came up with the filter trick out of sheer desperation for an accurate low dose, as human error managing crumbs and piles of powder resulted in continual surprise withdrawal symptoms for me. Like you, much to my surprise, I began to realize that 1-2mgs of Sub is a lot stronger than I thought. I didn't have any problems or WD symptoms decreasing from 24mgs until I reached the 2mg mark. The liquid method is the way to go. From what I've been reading, the detox from 1mg Sub is similar to the detox from 15mgs of methadone. When you look at it that way, coming down to .25mgs Sub becomes a preferred reality. Unless you're into the "no pain, no gain" thing. I have a long history of detoxes, and my body has become nothing short of evil with each successive detox attempt. Try to come off at a certain dose. You'll know pretty quickly if it'll work or not. Unfortunately, I have discovered that even .5mgs Sub is going to be too much for me. Others have jumped off just fine at that amount. You won't know until you've tried. Seems that patience is key here. I just wish I had known how long it would take a little earlier. By the time I was ready to detox (thinking I had a month or so to go), I was crushed to discover it was going to be much longer than that. I had to be realistic. The upside?? A slow taper detox lets your body adjust with zero or minimal discomfort. And at the very end, you're not afraid of feeling horrible, it's not going to drag on hopelessly for weeks and weeks, and the PAWS should hardly be an issue. It makes complete sense. Now, where do they sell "Patience" tablets? Cause I need some of those.. ----------------------------------- BigRed Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:32 pm ----------------------------------- That is such a neat idea! The cig filter thinggy! I actually just posted in another thread saying how annmarie has some great info, and I wanted to comment on the filter thing..... Very neat! Something else we can use to taper a bit easier. Thanks!!! [url=http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=8480#8480]Last post towards annmarie click here Thanks again Diary of a Quitter for the liquid taper method and annmarie and take care all! ----------------------------------- Joe McPlumber Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:17 pm Outrage, and Practical Matters ----------------------------------- Maybe an hour or so after i'm so impressed with you folks for your innovations and your humanity, i am P***ED OFF that you had to figure it out for yourselves. I mean, it's really great that you did, but i'm reading around the interwebs and coming on all sorts of people in all sorts of misery because the medical/pharmaceutical establishment has NO such options and people are jumping from 2mg cause that's the smallest you can get. But OTOH if we didn't do for ourselves i suppose we'd be at the mercy of doctors who might think we should stick to a program that might not be right for us, individually. NTM, some folks have expressed fear, for God's sake, that their doctors might find out they've been doing something unauthorized. Sad... Ok got that out my system. Questions, if i may: *Where do i get a syringe for such micro-doses? I've got an oral syringe here but it's marked in... um... 1/5 milliliter gradations. So it won't work when, (see i said when), i get down to .25mg. *I suck at math. It's ways off from here, but but how i'm gonna reckon the solution at different levels on the taper? I think maybe this warrants a spreadsheet or formula or something, that people can reference for the tapering process. I'm not inclined to ask my doctor for anything less than my 8mg tablets, because i'd prefer to hoard them in case anything goes wrong and so i have all the time i might need. But that means i can accurately break the tablets, at very best, into quarters and even then at these dosages i can imagine it getting tricky. Am i gonna need, at some point, to ask for 2mg tablets? *What exactly is the process for dissolving the tablets and getting the solution into the syringe? For instance, my oral syringe has a nipple on the business end which appears to hold almost a milliliter of liquid. I was just now experimenting with it and found it difficult to load it with say, 4ml of water without filling that nipple, thus, having to squirt some out in order to get air where the water is. When i get to doing this with Sub i obviously don't want to be squirting any of it out. Maybe i'm just stupid right now. *What's the (rough) consensus as to how long the taper should be? Annmarie, for instance, was bummed that it would be "much longer" than a month for her to get to .25mg from her current .5mg. I'm told that it will take me ~6 months to get my new knee working properly, and i was sorta hoping to use that same timetable to get off the Sub. Is this realistic, at common rates of reduction? Apologies if the answers to these questions are scattered about. And i obviously have no use for the answers right now because all i want in the whole world is back on to my Sub at whatever dose works. But i AM gonna do this, and it would be nice to have the whole process and all the maths and cigarette filter tricks etc. articulated in one place for those who might be stumbling around the interweb looking for help, now. I might could make my own answers if my brain worked, but meanwhile just seeing people actually doing these things is so very heartening i could almost cry. Thanks again, - joe ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:12 am ----------------------------------- Hi Joe, and welcome. I've come to the conclusion that many doctors don't have a clue as to what they're doing when it comes to Suboxone. You really have to educate yourself - kinda crazy if you ask me, but that's just the way it is. It's almost 3:00AM, but I'll try to answer some of your questions before I knock off. You can get another oral syringe from CVS. When I asked what section they were in, the pharmacist said they didn't sell them, but she would be glad to give me a few - one 1mg and one 5mg. If they ask you what it's for, just say it's to dose one of your children their medication. You already have the 5ml one, which is great - that's what I use to measure the water for the mixture. I use the 1ml one to actually dose myself. I'd stick with the 8mg tablets. It's just as easy to mix them if you have the equipment, they cost less per mg, and you can stock up on them as you taper down. My own mixture right now is 1mg for every 1ml, but you can play with that as you go along. I put a little sticker on the bottles that I've made up detailing the potency of each mixture. I take one of my pill bottles, and with the 5ml syringe measure 24ml of warm water into it. I then put in three 8mg pills, let it sit for 5 or 10 minutes, and just swirl it around a little. The pills should be desolved by then anyway. I draw the liquid up, then, keeping the tip still in the mix, squirt it back in and draw it again so there's no air bubble. I'm not sure I know what you mean about the nipple messing up the amount that you draw - if it says 1ml it's 1ml and that little area is accounted for when it was designed. Once you get close to - and under - 1mg per day, you have to slow your taper down because it takes your body longer to get accustomed to it than when you were tapering from the higher doses. Really got to get to bed, 'cause I can barely keep my eyes open. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. Take care. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:35 pm Down to .5mg ----------------------------------- I just wrote a novel of a post that dissapeared into the ether because I was supposedly not logged in. Grrr Argh!!! Anyway, the short version is - my dose is now at .50mg and everything is going ok so far. Time to get my butt back into the gym I think. Hope everyone is doing well. ----------------------------------- annmarie Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:32 pm Flipping My Dosing Schedule ----------------------------------- I am stable on .5mgs, doing a liquid taper. I dose twice a day. I've read many posts, and it seems the rule of thumb is larger dose in the morning, smaller dose in the evening. So typically, I take my larger dose in the morning (.35mg @ 7am) and the smaller dose in the evening (.15mg @ 6pm). I am good to go all day, but start getting what I affectionately refer to as "a little crunchy" in the evening. The 6pm smaller dose is enough to chase it away, but I start tossing & turning/waking up around 4-5am. Here's my question: Has anyone ever tried flipping their doses? That is, taking the small amount in early morning to chase the "crunch" away, then taking the larger dose in the afternoon? I'm thinking the small dose will stave off the WD for several hours while my mind is occupied during the morning, and I may sleep better if I took the larger dose closer to bedtime. Do you think it would be better to "scrape through the morning" if it meant I would sleep through the night? Cause I have to tell you, this repeated lack of sleep thing is probably just aggravating and worsening my WD symptoms. Ultimately, I would like to get back to dosing once a day, but since I've started tapering down, the Sub seems to "wear off" early evening. I may also want to mention, that I am currently not taking anything for sleep, over the counter or otherwise. If I can save the sleep meds for the final jump, that would be ideal. If anyone's tried this, or dosed like this, could you fill me in on what to expect? Or if it works/makes for better sleep? Thanks in advance! Annmarie ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:38 pm Dosing ----------------------------------- Hi annmarie, Lack of sleep can make the day seem like it's neverending, so maybe you should try breaking your dose up a little more evenly; it's worth a shot anyway. I'm taking .25 in the morning now and the same in the evening, which has been working well for me. Last Saturday I even forgot to take my night dose. Now that's something that would never have happened with the oxycontin... not in a million years. I do take something to help me sleep though, as I have for many years now for insomnia, but I've been cutting back on them for about a month now so they'll be more effective when I finally stop taking the sub. Clonodine is something that I'm waiting till the end to use too... every little thing I can think of I'm going to try. I took a brisk half hour walk today, and worked up a little bit of a sweat - it actually felt pretty good. From what I gather, it seems like most of the people who have successfully weaned were doing some king of exercise routine toward the end of their taper, whether cardio, weight training or both. In the past exercise has always been of some help with my sleep problems, as long as I don't do it within 3 hours of going to bed. Besides a little sleep disturbance before I adapt to each reduction, my legs throb at night. It doesn't exactly hurt, it's just a weird sensation, like I can feel the blood rushing through them with every heartbeat. I have a low grade headache at times as well, and I'm very grouchy - I caught a few kids trying to whack a goose with sticks today and I almost lost my mind. I lost my temper, but in my defense, I've always loved animals... plus, for the last few years I've worked at a wildlife rehab center, and that kind sick behaviour is something I just can't tolerate. Well, those are the negatives... but on the plus side, some of the side effects of the sub have gone away - the nodding, the constipation, and the lack of a sex drive, so that's something to be very pleased about. Best of luck to you, and I hope you'll continue to keep us updated on your progress. ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:34 am ----------------------------------- Hey Bronze! First, congrats on reaching the .5mg mark!! I know how disciplined/patient you must have been to get there. Your dosing regimen makes perfect sense: the same quantity every 12 hours. It seems delivering an even amount of Sub could banish the WD rollercoaster I've been on. Tomorrow, I will adjust my dosing schedule and try it your way. Thank you SO MUCH for the advice. We are all different (what works for one person may or may not work for another), but I think it's important to stay open-minded and try out other options. We are the guinea pigs for this drug. If the Drs had all the answers, we wouldn't need these forums. You wrote: "Last Saturday I even forgot to take my night dose. Now that's something that would never have happened with the oxycontin... not in a million years." I've done that, too. That is why I love the Sub so much: very low psychological addiction/craving. I have friends who have tapered down to crumbs, forgotten to take them a day or two, then realized it had been several days or even a week since their last dose. I believe the skipping days helped with the half-life, greatly lessening their WD symptoms. When you feel fine, it is easy to forget to take it. Like you, I am a chronic insomniac. Over the years, I have been on almost everything for sleep. But I also quit taking those meds about two months ago with the aim of lowering my tolerance- saving the Rx for the end of my taper. I get a few leg twitches at night, but so far so good. It's the "losing my mind/temper" part that is hardest to deal with right now. I have also gone inappropriately ballistic over the slightest thing. I have warned all my friends that I will be crazy for the next month or so, but I still feel very guilty for my outbursts. Sometimes I think I should've gotten dropped off on Detox Island for awhile. I have been trying to have a lot of quality "alone time." The mood swings are horrible. At times I feel like I've picked up a mental illness. I also get that constant headache. I've heard it's quite common during the detox. Some people have added salt to their diet due to all the sweating/dehydration we are going through. I read about a special Alkaline diet (eating alkaline foods to change the ph of the body, thus creating an anti-inflammatory environment) that can greatly reduce WD symptoms. This diet was specifically recommended for anyone with an autoimmune disease, cancer, or someone going through an opiate detox. I just started eating differently, so it's a bit too early to tell if it's helping. Exercise has seriously helped. I've noticed that people report it's hard to do, but will provide some relief. They are SPOT ON!! I do 2 or 3 ten minute sessions of weight lifting every day, especially if my legs start up. I'll look at them and say, "OK Crazy Legs, you wanna move? Well, I'll move you..." I get up and crank out some squats. It DOES help!!! However, just doing 10 minutes of exercise makes me so tired that I often take a nap afterward. So sad. I know that patients who have had leg surgery/broken legs, etc. are advised to elevate them above the heart to prevent that throbbing. This can be done with a pillow/foam wedge or by putting a few books under the bedposts. I'm sorry that's happening to you. I know how annoying it can be. I have also noticed that I do not feel WD symptoms when I decrease my dose by 10-12% or less. Any greater decrease, and I start to feel crunchy. Lately, I have been decreasing about 7% every 2-3 days with no problems. I have been keeping a record of my taper, and will post it when I have enough useful information collected. Again, thank you for responding! Keep me posted about your progress as well. It feels really good to know that I am not going through this alone. Annmarie ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:57 pm Thank You! ----------------------------------- Thank you annmarie. It's very comforting to be going through this taper with you. I've changed my diet as well - fruit and oatmeal in the morning, less fats and higher protein foods later in the day. I'm going to check out a few gyms in my area tomorrow, with the hopes that one has a pool. Right now, some form of exercise that's easy on my joints would be the way to go for me. I hope the dose change helps with your sleep. This afternoon I took a 20 minute nap, which I kind of regret because I want to be as tired as possible at night. I'm trying to decide how much to reduce my dose at this point. One thing that I would like to follow through with - which I may have mentioned - is to get down to an extremely low daily dose before I jump... say .10mgs or lower. It feels like my body is undergoing some repair work right now, and the longer and lower I go with my dose, the more damage I may be able to repair. Today I had a root canal and some other dental work done, then I went to the clinic and waited for about two hours to see the doctor to get my prescription. I'm a hurtin' puppy right now, but it really wasn't all that bad. The dentist wanted to give me vicodin for the pain, but I told him I was all set. He said "Well! I don't hear that very often.... you're a trooper!" And I'm thinking to myself "Yeah, I'm a trooper all right!" :) Keep me updated on your progress and I'll do the same. Take care. ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:38 pm ----------------------------------- eeeewww, Bronzey-B, ...the dreaded "no pain meds" dentist visit. You are incredible! That Rx was just within reach and you said NO! Give yourself a huge round of applause cause you're being very proactive with your recovery. You should definitely be proud of yourself!! I am also going to taper down to a ridiculously tiny tiny dose. I think that's the best way to escape heavy WD symptoms. I need more patience. I just want it all to be over with asap. But slow and steady seems to be the most painless path. Like you, my concern is how much to decrease, how long to stay at each dose, etc. I've read that a good rule of thumb is once you've been taking the same amount every day for 4 days in a row with NO withdrawal symptoms, you can go ahead and decrease again. (You MUST go 4 days in a row.) Until recently, I had been decreasing by increments of .05mgs every 3 days (approx. a 7-10% decrease) without any problems. I don't feel great in the evening, but I don't feel bad enough to take anything, either. I have read posts where people highly recommend staying at a low dose for a few weeks at some point to level out for awhile. I guess that gives your body time to adjust. (I'm planning to sit at .2 or .25 for a while.) Tomorrow I'm going down another .05, so I will let you know what that does, if anything. I will then be on .45/day. Wish me luck, LOL. Thank you for finding this forum, and going through this with me, even if we are total strangers. I know you (and everyone here) understand the anxieties I am having. And frankly, my friends are sick of hearing about it, as they don't really get it. If my next decrease goes horribly wrong for whatever reason, I'll post you immediately. Please do the same for me. I know we can figure this out, and see it through to the end. Thanks again, BB! ----------------------------------- superdog Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:43 pm Cotton filters ----------------------------------- I love the filter idea, but I just wonder one thing?, aren't cigarette filters made of fiberglass?. If so?, that may not be a good thing, as it breaks down and small pieces of silica could be working their way into your stomach?. I am not a Dr, but this may be a bad thing? :roll: ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:43 pm making progress ----------------------------------- annmarie - Good for you, going down another 10%. You have a great attitude and you're doing fantastic. I may not get a chance to post everyday, but if you run into any difficulties at all, please feel free to contact me asap. We both seem to have the same mindset right now, trying to rush something that shouldn't be rushed. Like you, I'm just so damn anxious to be done with it that I have to remind myself to stay focused and keep to the game plan. I'm going to stay at .50 for the next week or so to make sure I'm stabilized. I haven't decided yet. At the beginning of my taper, I made a pact with myself that I wouldn't take more sub once I made a reduction, even if I didn't feel well. The only exception would be if I had an urge at any time to use my doc, and that hasn't been an issue to date. I know what you mean about the importance of having a kindred soul. This is quite a big deal to me, but the two people I've confided in really don't want to hear about it. Keep me updated, and remember one thing - we're already a success... just look at what we've accomplished so far. We may have some not-so-good days along the way, but I really think we're going to be just fine in the long run. superdog Years ago I remember discussing this subject with a college instructor. He said it was just a myth and that cigarette filters were made of wood and cotton. It's very possible that trace amounts of fiberglass were found mixed in with tobacco at some point, and I think that's probably where the story originates. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:22 pm The Chemistry: Volume and Concentration Calculations ----------------------------------- Believe it or not volume and concentration calculations are very simple. On the other hand, solubilities and the various interactions of different substances in solution are not. In fact, even chemists must simplify every chance they get in order to avoid getting equations that may take hours to solve by hand. There are a few concerns I have about the liquid method (although it probably isn't a huge deal). The solubility of buprenorphine may be affected by other solids in the pill. For example, if a solution is saturated (which means, it can't hold any more solid) no other solids can "fit into" the solution. A few milligrams is a minuscule amount but it could still be affected. Of course, this is only of concern in solutions in which there is remaining solid or "gel" (i.e. they are relatively concentrated). Determining the concentration and volume of solutions is extremely easy. For example, if you have an 8 mg pill and dissolve it in 16 mL of water, the concentration will be 8/16 or .5 mg/mL (a cc or cm^3 is the same as a mL). If you dissolve an 8 mg pill in 26.2 mL of water... guess what? The conc. will be 8/26.2 or ~0.3 mg/mL. This means that at that conc. you will need to take 3 mL to get a (3 x 0.3) 0.9 mg dose. If you dissolve 8 mg in 10 mL or water your conc. will be (8/10) 0.8 mg/mL. If 2 mL evaporates off before you take any, your new conc. will be (8/(10 - 2)) 1 mg/mL. A drop or two of ethanol (grain alcohol) per mL (or perhaps less if that bothers you) should dramatically increase the solubility of buprenorphine (I will not explain the chemistry reasoning but just trust me). This probably won't be an issue, but it's a good way to be safe b/c you want ALL of the bupe to dissolve the first time. These pills have a mass of a little less than 400 mg so that means (w/w) they are ~98% filler. (97.5% if you count naloxone) It's been a while since I've looked at the composition of the pills but they contain about 380 mg of binders, fillers, other salts etc... that might affect the solubility of buprenorphine. It's a complex situation, though. Really, I wouldn't worry so much about it. The effect will be very small if it even exists. Also, you can preserve your solutions by adding 1 drop of benzyl alcohol per 8 mL of solution. This will not hurt you but still be aware that you can't just drink benzyl alcohol in large amounts. You can usually get it from a local compounding pharmacy (ask for benzyl alcohol USP and tell them you need it to preserve some stuff). I must go now but I will be perfectly willing to answer any questions anyone has as far as pharmacology and chemistry go. I plan on making an Excel document to help people with the calculations, also. And cigarette filters are composed of cellulose acetate. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:20 am Say what? ----------------------------------- I'll bite! :shock: You do realize, this being your first post, that you should have at the very least informally introduced yourself; particularly in light of the contents of your post. Having said that... I am familiar with the concept of evaporation, and no, I don't think I'll be injesting ethanol with my Suboxone anytime soon. Maybe you did mean well and I'm just a grouchy taperer, but your post didn't seem to contain any useful information. Also, I'm pretty sure that cellulose acetate is made from processed wood pulp, and another technique for producing cellulose acetate involves treating cotton with acitic acid, using sulfuric acid as a catalyst. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:52 am ----------------------------------- Oh no you didn't... I can't relate to your grouchiness because I never get/got irritable while WDing from anything. In fact, quite the opposite. And what the hell are the "contents of I don't think I'll be injesting ethanol with my Suboxone anytime soon. Why? If you say nothing else PLEASE answer this for me. Say what? Which part did you not understand? Which part was unclear or unreasonable? To continue: It's acetic acid, by the way (talking about useful information). CA it is made by reacting cellulose with acetic anhydride. Acetic acid is simply the solvent (mostly). And methamphetamine is made using various "toxic" chemicals as well (I'm talking about legitimate methamphetamine) but that doesn't mean people who take Desoxyn are exposed to any significant amount of them. My point is, just because the cellulose used to make cellulose acetate is obtained from wood pulp doesn't mean that there is much IF ANY in the final product. So the "cotton and wood pulp" thing is just a mish mash of different things. Cotton because it is cellulose and wood pulp because that is where they get the cellulose from in reality. Many "common knowledge" things are this way. I offered my knowledge of chemistry in an attempt to help but I was met with bullshit. I work as a tutor and, trust me, this is nothing new. People don't seem to trust those that are trying to tell them that what they thought they knew is actually wrong or way more complicated (and some just simply have no thirst for knowledge). I haven't experienced it yet but some students get VERY angry when they are told that one of their beliefs is wrong. We have had violence in our 'tutoring lab' before over such things. Since my post contained no useful information I assume you are saying you know more than I do on such matters and don't need or wish to read anything I have to say. Therefore I will probably be leaving. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt but you're post pissed ME off. I mean, you responded in this way TO A COMPLETELY FUCKING NEUTRAL POST! What the hell is wrong with you? Jerk. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:02 pm ----------------------------------- This will be my last message to you, and I'll try to keep it as short as possible because I really think we're just wasting each others time. You began your last post with the following, and I quote: "Oh no you didn't... I can't relate to your grouchiness because I never get/got irritable while WDing from anything. In fact, quite the opposite." Your right, it is quite obvious that you can't relate; not at all. "...never got irritable... quite the opposite." Are you kidding me? That second sentence implies that at some point in your life you have taken a potentially habid forming drug over a timespan that would likely cause dependence or addiction, and not only did you not feel like crap when you stopped, but you felt better than ever. I think it's fair to conclude that you show limited insight regarding opiate addiction and the symptoms that occur when use is discontinued. It's hell buddy! It may be that you were just unclear, and that what you meant to say was that you never took a narcotic - or other potentially addictive drug - over an extended period, so you can't empathise with the pain and discomfort that others feel upon cessation. In which case, you still can't relate. You know what really got me going? Someone who is tapering contacted me and was a little distraught after reading your post. The only part that stuck with them was when you said "There are a few concerns I have about the liquid taper method (although it probably isn't a huge deal)." The people who post here are in pain, and we are quite often second guessing ourselves as it is... we don't need someone to stoke the fire. The chemistry lesson was impressive, but I'm afraid those little tidbits of information are not very useful without mention of some kind of practical application. Oh, and by the way... there's no need for the F-bomb my friend. I learned a long time ago that everyone's a tough guy when they're behind bars, or hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. See ya, The Jerk :) ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:48 am ----------------------------------- I say the "F-bomb" in person when I get angry. No anonymity needed. Also, I take that back, I did get irritable when I tried to stop smoking. , and not only did you not feel like crap when you stopped, but you felt better than ever. What a strange conclusion. Is non-irritability synonymous with feeling "better than ever"? And I meant exactly what I said. I don't get irritable during opiate withdrawal. Not a single bit. I get depressed and almost excessively nice/sympathetic (on the rare occasion I want to be around someone). I don't understand when people get angry during it because I have never experienced that. I mean, is being a dick to others a requirement of opiate withdrawal? Depends on the person--like most everything else--I guess. Someone who is tapering contacted me and was a little distraught after reading your post. The only part that stuck with them was when you said "There are a few concerns I have about the liquid taper method (although it probably isn't a huge deal)." So it is your position that we should avoid saying things (even if they are the truth) just so people don't get scared? If so, you are in direct opposition to everything I believe. I thought it was clear that the only concern is that not all of the buprenorphine would dissolve. Is this really a bad concern, though, if the point is to take less? I left that consideration to the reader but I guess that was wrong. NOTE: THE CONCERN WAS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD OR URGENT CONCERN. Shall I give an example? Okay. If you dissolve an 8 mg pill in 8 mL of a 10% (volume to volume) water to ethanol solution you eventually get a white powder precipitating(?) and settling on the bottom of the container. What is the composition of this precipitate? Is it just microcrystalline cellulose or does it contain a few μg of buprenorphine? I think these are questions that should be asked and possibly answered. They can be answered with extremely long, involved and complex chemical equations IF the exact composition of the pill is known down to the μg but this isn't practical (seriously), especially with such small amounts of substances. but I'm afraid those little tidbits of information are not very useful without mention of some kind of practical application. And why is that a bad thing? Many things we know had no practical application at the beginning but began as a curiosity. For example Special Relativity, the photoelectric effect and perhaps the majority of theoretical physics. I'm not saying what I just asked or said is as important as these things, of course; I'm just saying that why is an obvious, immediate and direct practical application necessary to raise a question or concern? That seems very shortsighted to me. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:46 am Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming! ----------------------------------- I'm still holding at .50mgs a day. I feel much better than I did after the third and fourth day of lowering my dosage. The lower the dose, the longer it seems to take to bounce back. One thing is certain - I definitely feel my best when I'm exercising. I've also noticed that on the days that I don't exercise, I feel markedly worse. My withdrawal symptoms are negligible - a little runny nose in the morning, legs feel like they're throbbing (that feeling has all but disappeared in the last couple of days), some nights I'm only sleeping 5 hours or so (this probably has much more to do with me cutting my dose of xanax in half than the taper), I'm prone to be irritable at times (see the above exchange) and I still have some lingering aches and pains. I have experienced no sweating, sneezing, nausea, kicking legs, or significant depression during my taper. To sum it up, this thing seems quite doable so far. PS - Don't let the above pissing contest I engaged in influence you - if you see any information that someone has provided that you may find useful in your recovery, it would be foolish not to use it. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:15 pm ----------------------------------- I don't understand how this is a "pissing contest" or how this could, in any way, cause someone to just completely disregard the liquid method. Please, explain. I have been using that method off and on for the better part of 2 years (albeit with some ethanol mixed in; and obviously I wasn't very rigid with my schedule b/c I'm still doing it) and it works fine. BUT, if your goal is to completely maximize your efficiency--like if you have hardly any Suboxone left--then I think you should take into consideration what I said. Or you could just add enough liquid to dissolve everything. But of course that becomes problematic when you are trying to use as little liquid as possible, right? I was impressed that someone figured out the that cigarette filter method. I went to go get some yesterday and I started measuring out my doses today. I have about 13 8 mg pills left. I figured that I can taper for 6 months on that amount down to 0.1 mg and then just stop. That is my plan. Every is ready to go and that's what I'm going to do. One problem, however, that I have with this method is that from 9a-8p, 4 days a week, I go to school and work. I am around people pretty much that whole time. With the cig. filter method I probably won't be able to talk and I can't really spit it out in front of everyone. I'll probably just end up swallowing the filter after it's spent. EDIT I also don't understand how you are able to obtain Xanax and Suboxone at the same time. My doctor was extremely reluctant to give me any benzos apparently because someone is telling doctors not to prescribe them simultaneously. She ended up giving me a prescription for 10 0.5 mg Klonipins, which was more than enough for 6 months or so (actually it's been nearly a year so far and I still have 3 left). I can really only take a quarter of one at a time or it makes me really tired and sleepy (and makes me feel like shit). Does anyone else experience that? I even hate taking benzos during withdrawals. Although they allow me to sleep for a few hours at a time, it's the worst sleep ever and when I wake up I feel really bad. ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:13 pm ----------------------------------- Bronze, I decreased by .05mgs a few days ago. Now taking .45/day split into two, even doses as you suggested. I feel and sleep a lot better now that my doses are more evened out. I can feel only the slightest WD, a chill or a leg twitch here and there, but no depression, sweats, GI distress, headaches etc. You are correct, this is very tolerable. And if I distract myself, unnoticeable. Thank you so much for the advice, it's worked out beautifully!! Everyone is different, but looking back at my tapering charts (I keep a list of amounts dosed, # of days at that dose, any WD symptoms), I noticed that as long as I kept my decreases at less than about 13%, I would only feel the slightest WD. If I decreased any faster than every 4th day, things started to kick up a bit: night sweats, skin crawling, that nervous/speedy feeling. So I do think it's important to stay at each new level for at least 4-5 days if you want to avoid the WD. It is important to note that my WD symptoms are really bad, perhaps worse than other people's from what I've seen/heard/read. But this is great news for anyone who generally has lighter symptoms, because if I can decrease +/- 10% every 5th day without suffering, than they can most likely do it that quickly without worry!! Kat, A taper spreadsheet would be a great help!! Or perhaps a graph that calculates the stackable half-life as you decrease daily amounts? I think your scientific skills could be of great use there. It is important to remember that people visiting and posting here are in vulnerable situations. They are looking for help and answers at a time when they are trying to battle recovery. If you want people to hear what you have to say, please do not curse at them, insult them, or endlessly argue. That sort of behavior typically just shuts down the listener. Venting or debating a topic is certainly ok, but using kind words and keeping a positive attitude is not only imperative to the therapeutic environment, it is invaluable to a functional, healthy recovery. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:51 pm Good day! ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat I realize now you're in the same boat as the rest of us. So I just wanted to let you know that I really do wish you the best in your taper and eventual recovery. I've been prescribed Xanax for the last ten years or so. From my understanding, it is true that the combination of Suboxone and any benzo can cause respiratory arrest, particularly with individuals that have little to no tolerance for either drug. So it can be a deadly combination for some who abuse both types of medication - and when I say abuse, I'm not just talking about taking medication that is not prescribed, but those that are prescribed, taking much, much more than is necessary. The doctor who prescribes the Xanax also gives me a script for Seroquel to help with my sleep disorder, and a prescription for Wellbutrin for depression. I see him for five or ten minutes once every four months. He has no idea that I'm taking the sub, and I have no intention of telling him. He would probably still give me a script if he knew because he thinks I'm actually taking 50mgs of Oxycontin a day anyway, but I don't want to take that chance. Incidentally... years ago when I first told him that my neurologist suggested I start taking the oxy, he said in his opion it was a bad idea. He told me that it was more than likely that I would end up getting hooked on it and have to take it for the rest of my life, even though I had taken opiates in the past and never had a sustance abuse problem with any medication. In retrospect, I gotta say, he was right to be concerned. Funny thing... he is one of only a few doctors in my area that prescribes Suboxone, and it woud be much more convenient to get the sub from him, but as I said, there's no way in hell I'm going to tell him. He and I have mutual friends, and in my mind, the less people that know, the better. The doctor at the clinic where I get the sub IS aware that I take Xanax, but she also knows that I only take a fraction of what's prescibed to me - .5 to .75mgs per day instead of 4mgs, so it's not a problem. My distrust of doctors runs deep, I never want to be at anyones mercy, and financially it just makes sense to take less medication than is prescribed. I always keep on hand at least a two year supply of all my meds - that's one thing less that I have to worry about. At times, when I find that I've accumulated too much, and they'll probably go stale before I have the chance to use them, I flush them down the toilet. I know that some people would probably sell their extra meds, but I don't need the money - and having experienced the pain and suffering of addiction... knowing what kind of havoc they have the potential to cause, I'd have to be a real ass to do so. Well, anyway, that's the deal with my meds. Since this stuff is obviously fresh in your mind, I'm hoping you'll be able to answer a question for me. When I was in active addiction, there were times when I only had access to hydrocodone (Vicodin). I know what tylenol can do to your liver, so I would always extract as much of it as I possibly could before taking the hydro. When I mix up a batch of solution for my taper, I notice that quite a bit of filler and binding material sinks to the bottom. There's also a film on the surface. Is the partial agonist in sub completely water soluble, or should I shake the bottle before every dose? I have been mixing it prior to dosing, but I've been thinking that by doing so, I may actually be cutting down on the amount of buprenorphine that I'm taking (although I realize that even if that is the case, it may also be true that the amount is negligible). What do you think? Oh!...about that cat! "...if they don't ever open the box to feed, it'll eventually just be two different kinds of dead." :) That's not verbatim, but it's close enough. (Gaiman?) ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:03 pm Things are working out ----------------------------------- annmarie - I was just on my way out to treat one of the animals in my care, but I saw your post and wanted to let you know that you made my day. I'm so glad that the adjustment has helped you sleep better. We can and will do this. Hopefully I'll have some time later this evening to post a little more about what's going on with my situation, and hope to hear more about your progress as well. If you ever feel overwhelmed, don't hesitate to contact me. Take care. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:06 pm ----------------------------------- You're right, my language was harsh and I overreacted. I am on spring break so I will have some time to make that spreadsheet. I might even create a program that will do the calculations as well. It will be either a simple command line program or a Visual BASIC program with a graphical user interface (more familiar with C than BASIC). I guess I will do both. I always pick a project to work on during spring break to keep me occupied and this will be perfect (with the added benefit that it might actually help someone get of buprenorphine). The graph/equation for "stacking half-life" sounds fun, I'll start on that as soon as my daughter takes a nap. Just recently I tried to figure out an equation for the cost of Suboxone vs. how many you buy at a local pharmacy. I got close but I don't think they use just one equation (probably two different tiers). Anyway, I love doing stuff like this so if anyone else has any more ideas, let me know. Just saw your post bronze: The buprenorphine in Sub. is only slightly soluble in water. 17 mg/mL in water and 42 mg/mL in ethanol. Compared to other opiate hydrochlorides and other chloride salts, this is EXTREMELY low. As you can see, it seems that, by itself, 8 mg of buprenorphine should have no problem dissolving in even 1 mL of water; but, the problem could lie in something called the "common ion effect". Read about it on wikipedia. There is also something called the "diverse ion effect" (and ionic strength) but it usually increases solubility. The combination of these two effects relative to the concentration/solubility of each component in the pill is what would have to be determined using the most complicated of these equations due to the small amounts and large number of different compounds involved (not to mention bupe. and naloxone are huge molecules, further complicating the matter). Therefore, until I can figure out something definitive, I think you should shake it before each use or application. And Schrodinger's Cat has to do with something in quantum mechanics called a "wavefunction". Basically, everything in the universe has a wave associated with it. Until you 'measure' something that object only exists as a probability (or wave) that it will exist in a certain place at a certain "speed". In other words, a baseball that is not being measured is a certain mix between flying through the air, sitting on the ground and even falling to the center of the Earth. So, with the cat, if the "killing mechanism" is set up to where the cat's life/death is based on a completely unknown and random event and it is not "measured" it will be both alive and dead at the same time (according to this thought experiment). If the event has a 50/50 probability, then the cat will be 50% alive and 50% dead, sort of. It gets way more complicated. The famous scientist Richard Feynman once said, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics". He was mostly correct. ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:28 pm ----------------------------------- Bronzey-B, Glad I added some relief to your taper! It seems I want to change my strategy every so often. Every day I learn something new here! I think decreasing from smaller amounts of Sub is very different from the decreasing I've done at higher mgs. It's more challenging, for starters. I try to concentrate on being realistic about my progress. It's like "reverse instant gratification" -a nightmare for any addict. Cat, It sounds like you would be ppprrrrrfect for helping us figure out some things!! There is an enormous amount of data within these forum posts, plenty of trial and error, and a huge source of test subjects ready to answer any questions. If you can "crunch the numbers" or notice any patterns for success, it would be greatly welcomed! Like Bronze, I am nervous about mixing the water/Sub solution correctly/accurately. If I'm mixing up 10 doses, I will only use the first 7-8 (I draw up most of it and squirt it into cut up cig filters). I just toss the last bit out because I worry that it's all the Naloxone settling to the bottom. Would the ratio of mgs to mls still be the same even if I don't draw up all the solution? I was thinking I would only be losing a few doses, and would be less likely to get a dose with only the antagonist in it. I am curious, after taking x Mgs of Sub for x Days, how much Sub is in your system each day? The half-life is 36 hours? maybe? so I would think after taking 1mg every day for 20 days, there would be much more than just a mg in your system. So when a person "jumps off" at say, .1mg every 24 hrs, how much Sub are they REALLY jumping off of? I bet you could definitely answer that one, I'm just not that great at math and would love your help. Could you make a spread sheet/graph where we could enter the daily dose and it would compute the actual daily amount that's built up? Could we adjust the daily dose to reflect a gradual taper, and then see how fast our actual amounts would be dropping? I know that's a lot of questions, but I thought you may appreciate the specificity. Thanks in advance. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:26 am ----------------------------------- It is highly unlikely that you will have a significant amount of naloxone (compared to bupe.) at the bottom of the container. At the least you should have more bupe. than naloxone IF some of the pill isn't dissolving. You shouldn't throw it out. If there is not powder at the bottom then it is all dissolving. If it is all dissolved then the ratio is the same throughout the solution. The definition of solution is that it is homogeneous; meaning it is "the same". I am almost done with the stacking half-lives spreadsheet. Really it's done but my stubborn ass is trying to figure out a single equation for it. It's hard but I'm working. And, an answer to your question. 0.1 mg every 24 hours assuming a half-life of 37 hours: After being on this dose for about 2 weeks you would have 0.28 mg in your bloodstream every time you dosed (as in, including that dose). An interesting note is that if you took 0.05 mg every twelve hours you would reach a "plateau" of 0.25 mg despite it being the same dose daily. EDIT I have been working on this ALL NIGHT (off and on). The equation is: At = d - d*e^(-kt) + A(0) d = dose At = Amount in blood total k = ln(2)/(half-life) t = time afterwards (in hours) A(0) = dose Right now this only works when the period of dosage taking equals the half-life. Better stuff later hopefully. Bedtime. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:48 pm Knowledge is power ----------------------------------- This information could be very helpful in understanding why, when we stop taking buprenorphine after having tapered to a relatively low dose, we may still experience significant withdrawal symptoms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the math being what it is, this is how I would interpret things; If someone has tapered down to 1mg of Suboxone per day (which is roughly equivalent to 20 - 30mgs of Oxycontin*) and decides to stop dosing at that level... due to the half-life of Suboxone, their body has actually accumulated 2.72 times that amount. That would be like someone jumping from a daily dose of 54 - 82mgs of Oxycontin. Makes tapering down to the lowest dose possible seem even more appealing. Personal update: I slept better last night than I have in over two weeks - eight hours solid. Hardly any leg discomfort, and very slight sniffles in the AM. Hope everyone is doing well this evening. *A guide only - can not be exact due to the different mechanisms involved, route of use, individual body chemistry, and degree of absorbsion. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:31 am ----------------------------------- Exactly. This could very well explain some people's difficulty with quitting even extremely small doses of buprenorphine. I posted an equation in a different thread if you haven't seen it. Also, you must realize that using math this simple to describe something extremely complex and with a large number of variables is bound to give a substantial error. Nonetheless, I feel that it is a very good ballpark indicator. Like with most things, attempting to compensate for variables such as: different half-lives in different people, absorption half-life (which is also slightly different for everyone), absorption rate etc... will make the equation so complex as to make it impractical for the average person to compute (and in my opinion giving only a slightly different answer). In fact, there is a whole field of science dedicated to things like this called pharmacokinetics. It's interesting but very math intensive, so it is not for the faint of heart. There are plenty of very good sources of info on the internet on this subject if anyone is interested (just let me know). ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:40 am Spreadsheet is Ready ----------------------------------- Version 1.0a of the spreadsheet (the next step is an executable program). Ideas and criticisms welcome. This was scanned with Norton and SUPERAntiSpyware. It's clean. Word 2007: [URL=http://www.4shared.com/file/248180114/a92ecf00/SubDosageChart_version_10a.html]SubDosageChart version 1.0a.xlsx Word 2000 & 2003: [URL=http://www.4shared.com/file/248180322/68e4ed98/SubDosageChart_version_10a.html]SubDosageChart version 1.0a.xls TIME FOR SLEEP!!! ----------------------------------- DirtRider Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:39 pm Re: Spreadsheet is Ready ----------------------------------- Version 1.0a of the spreadsheet (the next step is an executable program). Ideas and criticisms welcome. This was scanned with Norton and SUPERAntiSpyware. It's clean. ...I can't re-post your links... TIME FOR SLEEP!!! WOW... Incredible info SC...So this would mean, that if one were to taper to .25mg/daily, they're ACTUALLY "jumping off" at closer to .675mg, which is the "plateau" for that dose in regards to half-life? If this is the case, my only request would be that the "Amount in blood @ this time (Q)" would default to the plateau, rather than the daily dose, same with "Amount if no other doses taken". This gives us a MUCH more clear idea of when the drug is completely out of our bodies. Thank you! EDIT: Just a note for others using this tool, make sure you look carefully at the "Interval" slot, it's set to 3hrs, I know most of us dose either every 12/24/36 etc hrs. ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:31 pm ----------------------------------- Cat, Thank You So Much!! for figuring all that out: "And, an answer to your question. 0.1 mg every 24 hours assuming a half-life of 37 hours: After being on this dose for about 2 weeks you would have 0.28 mg in your bloodstream every time you dosed (as in, including that dose). An interesting note is that if you took 0.05 mg every twelve hours you would reach a "plateau" of 0.25 mg despite it being the same dose daily. " I knew the stacking half-life was the culprit behind the lengthy WD, but now I also know how much I'm REALLY jumping off from. If I consulted an Opiate Equivalency chart for Bup, I could compare it to prior detoxes and get a rough idea of what I'm really looking at in terms of WD. Your spreadsheet will also allow me to try out different tapers. From looking at your results, I think I will stick with dosing every 12hrs. I need all the help I can get! I've also found it helpful to keep a record (hour by hour sometimes) of my decrease percentages and any WD symptoms. (I have a very detailed day-by-day file that I can post or save as a .pdf if you're ever interested) But here's a general synopsis: At doses below 1.5 mgs, my body seems to react the same way for 6-10% decreases: Hours 1-24: Totally Fine Hours 25-40: Feel Slight WD (yawning, a feeling similar to a slight fever) Hours 41-55: Peaks to a Moderate WD (rapid heartbeat, tired, slight muscle soreness) Hours 56-60: Feeling Noticeably Better Hours 60-On: Feel Fine This gives me an idea of what to expect after a decrease (they're usually around .05mgs), and I can plan for when the noticeable symptoms will typically hit. Thanks again, Cat!! Please post any ideas you have about dosing times, decreasing, jumping off, etc. AM ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:00 am Don't Forget Bioavailability ----------------------------------- You are correct, DirtRider. And I'll get right on those suggestions of yours--thanks. To everyone else: Let us also not forget (something that I failed to mention until now) the actual "bioavailability" of buprenorphine in the Suboxone formulation. Bioavailability is a very complex concept and it is rarely extremely precise. This is the reason there are several different experimentally obtained values for it out there. For those who don't know bioavailability is how much of a drug is actually absorbed by the body. If you took 10 mg of a drug and it's bioavailability was 30% then, in reality, you would feel the effects of 3 mg and the other 7 mg would be passed through your body with no effect. Here is some information that may be helpful: According to Buprenorphine has approximately 30% bioavailability with sublingual administration. Another article: Studies of sublingual buprenorphine have suggested that 2 and 8mg doses of the solution form (in 30% alcohol) result in approximately 30 and 40% bioavailability, respectively, and the monotherapy tablet form delivers approximately 50% of that provided by the solution. While studies of the relative bioavailability of different buprenorphine forms have examined acute (single) doses of buprenorphine, examination of the relative availability of buprenorphine after at least seven days of dosing has also shown plasma concentrations for monotherapy tablets that were 55% of those produced by alcohol solution. The higher bioavailability of the buprenorphine solution versus tablets is most likely due to alcohol’s ability to enhance penetration in the buccal mucosa. In the present study, after 7 days of dosing the mean peak buprenorphine concentration produced by monotherapy tablets was 62% of that produced by buprenorphine solution—a value not markedly different from the 55% found in an earlier study. However, at week 1 the combination tablet produced a peak value that was 82% of that produced by solution, and by week 2 this was 93%. Calculations for the AUC0–6 show a similar pattern—at week 1, the AUC0–6 for the monotherapy tablet was 64% that produced by solution, but the combination tablet was 79%. By week 2, the AUC0–6 for the combination tablet was 87% of that produced by solution. The diminishing difference between solution and tablets between weeks 1 and 2 appears to be due to a greater decrease in buprenorphine plasma concentrations for solution versus tablets over the two-week period. In addition, there is a greater time to peak concentration for all three forms between weeks 1 and 2. This suggests there is an adaptation that occurs in the buccal environment to the solution form relative to tablets, perhaps in response to the alcohol used for the solution form of buprenorphine. Alternatively, there may be learning or other behavioral changes over time regarding how subjects hold and absorb these sublingual formulations. In addition to differences between solution and tablets, it appears there may be differences in bioavailability of buprenorphine monotherapy versus combination therapy tablets. While the latter contains naloxone, it is notable that in the present study naloxone plasma concentrations were essentially undetectable for virtually all samples tested. This occurred despite the administration of a substantial dose of naloxone (2 mg), but is consistent with other work which has shown the sublingual administration of 8/2 mg of buprenorphine/naloxone does not precipitate a withdrawal syndrome in opioid dependent persons, and that the bioavailability of sublingual naloxone is low. The greater availability of buprenorphine delivered in the combination tablet compared to monotherapy tablet (e.g., Cmax in the first week) suggests that the presence of naloxone in these tablets, or a metabolite of naloxone generated in vivo, is somehow facilitating buprenorphine’s systemic availability, or that the composition of the combination tablet differs in some other significant manner from the monotherapy tablet. These results provide further data supporting the preferred clinical use of combination rather than monotherapy tablets, and the low bioavailability of naloxone suggests direct induction with the combination product should be possible. Source: Drug and Alcohol Dependence 74 (2004) 37–43 Relative bioavailability of different buprenorphine formulations under chronic dosing conditions Eric C. Strain, David E. Moody, Kenneth B. Stoller Sharon L. Walsh, George E. Bigelow Translation: The ethanolic solution produces a much greater bioavailability at first but then tends to get closer to regular Subutex bioavailability due to some unknown effect. Also, the buprenorphine in Suboxone, for some reason, seems to have a higher bioavailability than the bupe. in Subutex. The serum concentration achieved by 16 mg of tablet buprenorphine is higher than that of the 8 mg solution, although differences between physiologic, subjective and objective opioid effects were not noted. The relative bioavailability of tablet versus solution is estimated to be 0.71; thus, with respect to dosing parameters for the tablet, clinicians should consider using less than 16 mg to achieve bioequivalence to the 8 mg solution. Translation: The liquid formulation they used caused an estimated 29% increase in buprenorphine absorption. (I can't get much more from this article because you have to pay to read the rest) As an aside, check this out: The article offers information on a study for determining pharmacy willingness to partner with office-based opioid dependence treatment (OBOT) providers in conducting random buprenorphine pill counts. It was found that most pharmacies in the U.S. were willing to participate, 22.3% were unwilling, and 3.7% were unresponsive. As mentioned, pharmacies may be a valuable partner in conducting pill counts to decrease diversion and misuse of buprenorphine from OBOT, particularly in rural areas. Source: American Journal on Addictions; Mar2010, Vol. 19 Issue 2, p195-196, 2p Pharmacy Willingness to Partner with Office-Based Opioid Dependence Treatment Providers in Conducting Random Buprenorphine Pill Counts. Lofwall, Michelle Wunsch, Martha Walsh, Sharon So, obviously, there is nothing close to a definitive answer as to the bioavailability (at least not one that I can find). If anyone has any information on this, let me know. Also, as always, if you notice any errors please bring them to my attention. And if you need/want copies of any of these articles, let me know and I will send them to you. ----------------------------------- DirtRider Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:05 am ----------------------------------- Ok, that second article really started to hurt my brain, lol. I completely forgot about bioavailability, which I understand to be the ACTUAL amount of the drug that enters your bloodstream, if it's actually only 30%, then a dose of .25mg only gets you somewhere around .075mg? Did I read correctly that people doing a liquid taper (WITH WATER ONLY) would have an increased bioavailability? This would be interesting as it would lend to them wanting to taper to a lower dose than the "crumb" takers. ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:33 am Alcohol-Added Bup Solution Has Shorter Half-Life? ----------------------------------- Cat, Thanks for posting those articles! Would it be correct to deduce that mixing up a liquid Sub batch with the alcohol added would create something similar to the "Bup Solution" that study used? If so, would it mean that we'd get a better bioavailability in the beginning, with a faster "half-life wind-down" or clearing out of our system? Could this be useful for creating a shorter WD period, since the Sub leaves the body faster? A lot of questions, I know. You seem to have great information, so I'd love to know what you think. P.S. Do you know anything about speeding up a detox using Naltrexone, creating a few hours of "rapid withdrawal" to hurry the process along? I've posted about this in another thread, but was wanting to ask you. Thanks again!! AM ----------------------------------- DirtRider Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:50 am Re: Alcohol-Added Bup Solution Has Shorter Half-Life? ----------------------------------- Cat, Thanks for posting those articles! Would it be correct to deduce that mixing up a liquid Sub batch with the alcohol added would create something similar to the "Bup Solution" that study used? If so, would it mean that we'd get a better bioavailability in the beginning, with a faster "half-life wind-down" or clearing out of our system? Could this be useful for creating a shorter WD period, since the Sub leaves the body faster? A lot of questions, I know. You seem to have great information, so I'd love to know what you think. P.S. Do you know anything about speeding up a detox using Naltrexone, creating a few hours of "rapid withdrawal" to hurry the process along? I've posted about this in another thread, but was wanting to ask you. Thanks again!! AM AM, I'm not a Dr., nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last nite, but I BELIEVE, that bioavailability refers to only the amount of drug available to your bloodstream, and has nothing to do with the half-life of said drug. So, by putting the Sub in alcohol, you are only INCREASING the actual amount of Sub in your blood, nothing more, nothing less. SC, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the concept of bioavailability. If using Naltrexone, which I believe "knocks" all the receptors free of opiates, is ANYTHING (I believe it IS) like what Sub/Bupe does to a person while opiates are still in their system (Precipitated Withdrawal), you DO NOT WANNA MESS WITH IT! Precipitated withdrawal was THE WORST EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE! I think you'd be best served to taper as low as you can. I just rechecked the kick ass spread sheet that SC posted, and took bioavailability into consideration, a daily dose of .25mg, with 30% bioavail. (.075mg) actually has a "plateau" of .20mg...which I find pretty interesting as it's so close to .25mg, 1mg w/ BA considered is .85mg...maybe someone at the drug company actually did some math here? ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:09 pm ----------------------------------- Dirt, you're so funny!! First, that article was a bit heavy on the head, but after reading you post, I think they are saying that after a week or so of dosing, both the Sub Tablet's and Solution's bioavail is not very different, even though the Solution had a greater bioavail during the first several days. It's not that the Solution form leaves the body faster, then. I still may not be understanding what they are saying, as I am in a taper "Brain Fog". If I have it totally wrong, could you fill me in on what their point is? Thanks for helping me get it. Yeah, the Naltrexone quickie-detox is unfortunately something I have done a few times, with fast but (just like you said) very painful results. I think, however, that I took the Naltrexone too soon after my last dose (36hrs?), and jumped from WAY too high a dose (2mgs Sub) to be antagonizing. A less-intense experience could have been advantageous to a faster detox. I also didn't take ANYTHING during that WD. Not even Advil. My boyfriend at the time also did a Naltrexone detox, but from less than half the dose I was jumping from and after being off Sub for 3-4 days. Within 4 hours, he was cleaning the apartment and making dinner. Completely fine. I was only thinking of wiping out, say the last 25% or so. Maybe taking it on Day 4 after the jump from a very tiny amount (.1/day). It's only about an hour of bad WD, and it could shave 3-6 days off lagging WD symptoms. Just an idea I'm toying with, since I have the Naltrexone. Girls and Boys, DO NOT try this at home. Isn't Cat's spreadsheet great!?! It really puts everything into perspective when you are trying to decrease/jump off. When you realize the actual amount of Sub that's built up in your bloodstream, you get a much clearer picture of what the WD symptoms are going to be like. Even jumping from .1mg/day of Sub is similar to a Methadone detox of 3.75mgs. There are many other factors that effect WD symptoms, but now I can get a general idea of how easy/hard it might be from detoxes I have done in the past. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:04 pm Hmmmm ----------------------------------- I'm sure the conversion charts that we've referenced already factor in the bioavailability of sub along with all the other opiates that it's compared to, so no change there. But because we haven't taken into account the actual amount our bodies can absorb, does this mean the 1mg in our calculations should actually be .3mgs? annmarie - I also dropped down to .45mg on Tuesday and I'm feeling pretty good. Like you, I just want to be done with it and have thought about jumping at a higher dose than I'd initially planned. The thing is, I really want to get this right the first time, so I'm probably going to continue on with the 10% taper and jump at .05 or so - maybe even lower. I've also decided that I'm probably going to stop going to the clinic where I've been getting my Suboxone. They gave up all pretense of counselling quite some time ago anyway. A recovering addict that spent most of his life in prison does show up on occasion to speak with the people in the worse shape, but he does that on his own, they don't pay him. Not a bad guy really - I first met him back in 1986 when I was a guard at the state prison and he was an inmate. We shoot the breeze sometimes, which does make the time go by... but that's really a part of my life that's over, and I'd rather not think about all the insanity that went on back then. The man who owns and runs the clinic did address the groups a few weeks ago - he said he was aware that some of us were selling our scripts, and to be careful and not get caught. Didn't sound like he was at all concerned about the morality of the issue, but that doesn't surprise me a bit. To kill time, I usually bring a book with me. It's all just a matter of showing up, getting crammed into a room with about 60+ other people (they just opened up two more rooms, and those are packed now as well), then waiting over 2 hours to see the doctor for a couple of minutes so she can give me my prescription. I have to laugh... she writes me a one month script (sometimes before I even walk into the room) every two weeks because she doesn't even look at my chart. So, all things considered, I think I'm going to show up two more times, get a script for Clonidine (sp?) if possible, and be on my way. I seem to have gone off on a tangent with this post, and probably should have put most of it in the bitch-fest Im-angry-as-hell let-me-spout-off thread. So, I am sorry about that. Anyway, back on topic. I am very interested to know just how our not taking into account the 30% bioavailability of the buprenorphine changes the equation. Hope everyone is having a great day! ----------------------------------- DirtRider Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:40 pm ----------------------------------- Dirt, you're so funny!! First, that article was a bit heavy on the head, but after reading you post, I think they are saying that after a week or so of dosing, both the Sub Tablet's and Solution's bioavail is not very different, even though the Solution had a greater bioavail during the first several days. It's not that the Solution form leaves the body faster, then. I still may not be understanding what they are saying, as I am in a taper "Brain Fog". If I have it totally wrong, could you fill me in on what their point is? Thanks for helping me get it. Yeah, the Naltrexone quickie-detox is unfortunately something I have done a few times, with fast but (just like you said) very painful results. I think, however, that I took the Naltrexone too soon after my last dose (36hrs?), and jumped from WAY too high a dose (2mgs Sub) to be antagonizing. A less-intense experience could have been advantageous to a faster detox. I also didn't take ANYTHING during that WD. Not even Advil. My boyfriend at the time also did a Naltrexone detox, but from less than half the dose I was jumping from and after being off Sub for 3-4 days. Within 4 hours, he was cleaning the apartment and making dinner. Completely fine. I was only thinking of wiping out, say the last 25% or so. Maybe taking it on Day 4 after the jump from a very tiny amount (.1/day). It's only about an hour of bad WD, and it could shave 3-6 days off lagging WD symptoms. Just an idea I'm toying with, since I have the Naltrexone. Girls and Boys, DO NOT try this at home. Isn't Cat's spreadsheet great!?! It really puts everything into perspective when you are trying to decrease/jump off. When you realize the actual amount of Sub that's built up in your bloodstream, you get a much clearer picture of what the WD symptoms are going to be like. Even jumping from .1mg/day of Sub is similar to a Methadone detox of 3.75mgs. There are many other factors that effect WD symptoms, but now I can get a general idea of how easy/hard it might be from detoxes I have done in the past. AM, Yeah, you're right, both the solution and tablets equal out after the first week or so! I've seen the Sub. bioavailability listed from 30%-50% on various places, even if we put it at 50% (which I only saw mentioned in 1 article), at .1mg, your "plateau" would be around .135mg, at 30% you're now looking at a "plateau" of .08mg, if you were to take another step and dose every 48hrs for the last week or 2, you're now at a .049mg "plateau"...that seems like it'd be almost completely w/d free (I'm going by my own experience jumping from .25mg)...something to consider, again, that's not a 50% decrease (due to halflife), but pretty aggressive. What doses have you tried "jumping off" from on Sub, only 2mg? Just comparing my own experience w/ those of others whom tried a 2mg jump...there is NO comparison, .25mg has been SUPER mild for me so far (but I'm only at 93hrs so far, maybe 94 by the time I finish this post, LOL). It's definitely a possibility to "pound out" the last bit of Sub w/ some Naltrexone (I cringe at the thought of it), but I'm going to suggest that you will be pleasantly surprised by what you experience if you continue your taper down to .1mg or below even. The only other person I've read who did a similar taper was Diary, let's not forget that Diary has Fibromyalga(sp), which could've been the cause for MOST of the w/d experienced in that case (remember, Diary said it really wasn't bad AT ALL) as stress can exacerbate Fibro symptoms greatly, just a thought. Keep doing what you're doing, you're gonna be fine if you stick to your taper, and if you find yourself hurting, just rinse and repeat, going lower and trying again (although I don't think you'll need to!) To me, there's absolutely no shame in deciding you didn't go low enough and taking some Sub, then continuing and trying again, you're just learning what works for your body/mind. Also, ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN A RELAPSE ON YOUR DOC! ----------------------------------- DirtRider Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:54 pm Re: Hmmmm ----------------------------------- I'm sure the conversion charts that we've referenced already factor in the bioavailability of sub along with all the other opiates that it's compared to, so no change there. But because we haven't taken into account the actual amount our bodies can absorb, does this mean the 1mg in our calculations should actually be .3mgs? Ok, I'm not sure which charts you're looking at, but it APPEARS, that with bioavailability taken into account, your "plateau" (actual amount of Sub in your blood after a few weeks) will come pretty close to your ACTUAL TAKEN dose, at least at levels around or below 1mg. This may be a coincidence, I'm not sure, maybe SC can help out here. Anyway, back on topic. I am very interested to know just how our not taking into account the 30% bioavailability of the buprenorphine changes the equation. Hope everyone is having a great day! If you're talking about the equation in Schrodinger's spreadsheet, then yes, I believe it changes your "Dosage(mg)", you'd want to multiply the actual amount your taking by .3, to get your dose w/ respect to bioavailability (ugh, we need to start shortening that to b/a or something). I'm hoping SC comes back here to set us all straight as he seems to be a wizard w/ mathematics and obviously knows his equations better than I do. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:45 pm ----------------------------------- I'm going to make this quick so I can take a quick nap (is getting tired in the middle of the day related to Suboxone? I never remember having to take naps before, especially when I didn't work that day; and I'm only 25!) before my daughter wakes up. In order to compensate for bioavailability you need to multiply your dose by: ( b/a percentage divided by 100) In other words, move the decimal over two times (30% becomes .3; 50% becomes .5; 2.5% becomes .025). I will put a b/a adjustment slot on the next version of the spreadsheet. Okay, I just added it. Later on tonight I will upload the next version (1.0b) with all the suggestions that I've received. Thanks for that guys! I completely forgot about bioavailability, which I understand to be the ACTUAL amount of the drug that enters your bloodstream, if it's actually only 30%, then a dose of .25mg only gets you somewhere around .075mg? Yes. Would it be correct to deduce that mixing up a liquid Sub batch with the alcohol added would create something similar to the "Bup Solution" that study used? If so, would it mean that we'd get a better bioavailability in the beginning, with a faster "half-life wind-down" or clearing out of our system? Could this be useful for creating a shorter WD period, since the Sub leaves the body faster? I don't think it will increase the rate at which the drug leaves the body BUT, subjectively, I have seen studies where people reported that the effects from the alcohol dose seemed to "come on" quicker, be more pronounced, and "last longer". I have been looking all over for that article but can't seem to find it. I'll post it here when I do. P.S. Do you know anything about speeding up a detox using Naltrexone, creating a few hours of "rapid withdrawal" to hurry the process along? I've posted about this in another thread, but was wanting to ask you. The only problem with antagonists and buprenorphine is that the bupe. is not entirely reversed by the antagonist. But, "in theory", this should help move it along. At one point I was thinking about stopping my (methadone at the time) dose, taking a whole bunch of a benzodiazepine (enough to really compel me to sleep) and, at the same time taking several naltrexone pills. This was just me REALLY wanting to be off and be off now (I wouldn't recommend that now unless you really know what you're doing and don't have addiction problems with benzos; anesthesia is a very delicate proceudure in hospitals and whatnot where they usually have an "anesthesiologist" to make sure nothing goes wrong). Plenty of legitimate doctors use this method to help the process along (although the patient is usually anesthetized). If you can tolerate it then I say go for it. It should at least help speed it up. I like to think of it as a "pain repayment" system. You have collected "pain debt" over the years and you can either repay it slow or fast. Of course, you shouldn't take the analogy too far b/c the human body is very complex. For example, your body might repair itself more slowly because you will be so stressed out and probably won't want to eat correctly or exercise. There are other factors as well. I'm not a Dr., nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last nite, but I BELIEVE, that bioavailability refers to only the amount of drug available to your bloodstream, and has nothing to do with the half-life of said drug. So, by putting the Sub in alcohol, you are only INCREASING the actual amount of Sub in your blood, nothing more, nothing less. SC, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the concept of bioavailability. That's right. Precipitated withdrawal was THE WORST EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE! This is true with the only difference being that with naltrexone you won't feel better as fast because you didn't just take a buprenorphine. My precipitated withdrawal lasted for about 30-45 mins. and it was the most severe withdrawal I ever had. It was horrible. But, because the buprenorphine caused it, after that short time I started feeling better and better until I wanted to go eat a cheeseburger. I think they are saying that after a week or so of dosing, both the Sub Tablet's and Solution's bioavail is not very different, even though the Solution had a greater bioavail during the first several days. It's not that the Solution form leaves the body faster, then. Yes, the actual plasma (blood) levels became more similar between the two formulations as time went on. They only speculate as to why, though (because this would only make sense if the bioavailability of either one went up or down respectively). I am very interested to know just how our not taking into account the 30% bioavailability of the buprenorphine changes the equation. It shall be done. I'm sure the conversion charts that we've referenced already factor in the bioavailability of sub along with all the other opiates that it's compared to, so no change there. Really? I did not know that. But because we haven't taken into account the actual amount our bodies can absorb, does this mean the 1mg in our calculations should actually be .3mgs? Yes. But remember, this can vary. I would take an average between the 50% and the 30% reported and do 40% (multiply by .4) I will work on getting a better estimate of the "mean bioavailability". I will poll all of the quoted BAs out there and average them. I'll work on that later tonight, too. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:31 pm conversion charts ----------------------------------- Hey Cat, Excellent job! As far as what I said about the bioavailability already having been factored in... I misspoke... that's not what I wanted to say at all. What I meant was, I don't think that it's really necessary - at least for our purposes - to know 'what' the BA is of the other analgesics in the conversion charts. It's very possible that I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression that test subjects were administered doses in the same - or very similar - form as what is, or what will be made commercially available to the public. Knowing what the bioavailability of buprenorphine is, so we can then determine how much our bodies accumulate due to the half-life is the important thing - without knowing that, those conversion charts are not very useful at all when it comes time to figure out how bad our withdrawal symptoms will be when we do decide to jump at a certain dose. Anyway, thanks for all the research your doing. I think it's going to help a lot of people. Well, I'm going to hit the sack. Feeling physically fine, but emotionally drained. One of the animals I've been caring for has a condition called Osteomyelitis (bacterial infection of the bones and joints). If I had known what was wrong six months ago she would have stood a good chance of surviving, but I didn't figure it out in time. It's progressed to the point that there's nothing I can do now and I'm beating myself up over it. I have to make a decision. If this were a year ago I would have taken a couple of 80mg oxys to help me deal with the situation, but this isn't a year ago. Check back in a few days. Night all! ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:18 pm Down to .45 mgs / Rescue Doses / Dosing Every 8 Hrs? ----------------------------------- Great job BronzeB!! Doesn't it feel good to get into the .4x's?? See, I promised it wasn't a big deal at all! I feel fine also. Decreasing from .5 to .45, I only had a 12 hr period of "something's going on", followed by about 6 hrs of feverish/tired/clogged ears/head cold. But I think dosing every 12 hours really helps. Even the smallest dose will relieve WD symptoms for a few hours, so if I start feeling bad, I only have to deal with it for a few hours until I can dose again. I also keep some tiny .05mg "rescue doses" around. If it's been at least 3 hours since I've last dosed, and I still feel bad, then I can take one. I'll try to hold out during the day, but I will take one around midnight so I can sleep. Taking them slows down my progress, but last time, having to take a rescue dose twice only added 1 extra day to my schedule. That tiny, little extra at midnight meant I slept really well, helping out my symptoms/state of mind overall. (Generally, I will only decrease again if I have not used a rescue dose for 2 days in a row.) I've heard of people dosing 3 times a day, usually for pain management or some weird reason. I wonder if dosing every 8 hrs during a taper would be even better than every 12 hrs? The main issue I have is with break-through WD symptoms just before my next dose. Would a more even/more often dosing schedule prevent that? I think Cat figured out that the overall plateau (the actual amount of Sub we're on per day due to stacking half-life) was slightly lower for those splitting the daily dose up into 2 and dosing every 12hrs. Wonder if would be even lower by dosing every 8 hrs. I'll hit that spread sheet again. Bronze, let me know if you decide to drop to .4 or whatever. Until then, I'll be at .45mgs, planning my next decrease, as usual... ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:47 am ----------------------------------- I made the regular half-life part to where it would show how long it would take from the plateau without taking any more doses. There was another thing wrong with that part that I fixed. I also added in the BA part. Once I fix it up and get it all put together (looking nice again) I'll put it up. It will be soon. ----------------------------------- DirtRider Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:30 am ----------------------------------- I made the regular half-life part to where it would show how long it would take from the plateau without taking any more doses. There was another thing wrong with that part that I fixed. I also added in the BA part. Once I fix it up and get it all put together (looking nice again) I'll put it up. It will be soon. SC, Thanks again for the effort on this tool, it's very informative. AM & Bronzebeta, Keep doing what you're doing, BE PATIENT, and stick to your schedule, the end will be there before you know it, and IT WON'T BE THAT BAD (especially if you go below .25mg a bit)! One thing I kept telling myself throughout my taper was that, "if it ever gets too awful, just take a bit of Sub, there's nothing wrong with that", and I think it's true. I didn't use this as an excuse to be a total wuss and dose everytime I didn't feel 100%, but it was comforting to know that I had a backup plan that DIDN'T include oxy! ----------------------------------- annmarie Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:37 am Patience vs. Progress ----------------------------------- Dirt, your quote is very true: "AM & Bronzebeta, Keep doing what you're doing, BE PATIENT, and stick to your schedule, the end will be there before you know it, and IT WON'T BE THAT BAD (especially if you go below .25mg a bit)! One thing I kept telling myself throughout my taper was that, "if it ever gets too awful, just take a bit of Sub, there's nothing wrong with that", and I think it's true. I didn't use this as an excuse to be a total wuss and dose everytime I didn't feel 100%, but it was comforting to know that I had a backup plan that DIDN'T include oxy!" I saw a post once that read: "You don't get extra points for suffering." I think the point of what you are both saying is that suffering too much can perhaps cause greater problems later on, as in relapse. It is a very important point you are making: When it comes to detoxing, slowing down can facilitate success, whereas going too quickly could aggravate failure. As an addict, "Now, Now Now!!" was a familiar feeling. Part of recovery is practicing temperance. Hmm...don't want to go astray. Thank you for the encouragement! I really DO need to hear things like "Be patient" right now. It just gets so exhausting doing mini-detoxes every 3-4 days. I had no idea I would physically feel every .05mg drop. The time needed to correctly taper without bad WD has really surprised me. I think I would have been much more patient if I knew that fact long before I decided to stop Sub treatment. I thought I could hop off at 1 or 2mgs with minimal WD. WRONG!! After reading your advice, I have altered my jump off plan to include small "rescue doses" of .05mgs if needed. I often read about people who have "jumped" by taking tiny doses only when their WD symptoms became intolerable. They reported the time between these doses started increasing, and eventually they realized they hadn't taken anything in days or weeks. Bronze, "If this were a year ago I would have taken a couple of 80mg oxys to help me deal with the situation, but this isn't a year ago. " Isn't that a GREAT feeling?!? It's a sign of real progress in your recovery: The hindsight moment when we realize we have been coping with life issues on our own, without our old "security blankets", and we are still ok. Sometimes, this moment is subtle or fleeting, but I think we should amplify and celebrate it as a milestone in our recovery. We are no longer buried under denial, thinking "I just can't live without my DOC." I'm trying to be patient about my taper, but like you I am wanting to be done. Sooo close now.... Instead of doing 3 mini-decreases of .05mg every 3-5 days, I might try a larger decrease next time to .3/day (split into 2 doses of .15) and just use a few rescue doses (of .05mgs) until I stabilize. Let me know what your next move is, if you decide to suddenly jump, or if you have any ideas. I can't thank you enough for going through this with me! ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:58 am Spreadsheet Version 1.0b Download Link ----------------------------------- Okay, the updated version of the spreadsheet has been uploaded (as usual, let me know about any errors or suggestions/criticisms): Excel 2007: [URL=http://www.4shared.com/file/251332733/c8d2594f/SubDosageChart_version_10b.html]SubDosageChart version 1.0b.xlsx Excel 2000 & 2003: [URL=http://www.4shared.com/file/251334393/105f46c5/SubDosageChart_version_10b.html]SubDosageChart version 1.0b.xls Hope this helps! School starts tomorrow and I need to work on some homework so I definitely won't be on here as much as I have been. BUT, I will be stopping by every now and then and I will try to keep the spreadsheet updated and moving along. The executable program will be "out" after summer break starts (writing a program, especially one with graphics, is a lot more involved). An interesting note is that it takes a BA of ~36.25% in order to make a once daily dose plateau be equal to the actual dose. I have started my taper, BTW, off of 2 mg. I might've been at about 2.7 mg or perhaps a bit less (I have just been taking pieces whenever I felt like it and, after doing to math, it seemed to average out to 2 - 2.7 mg a day; the error coming from how many I lost at one point). I'm pretty sure I can jump to 2 mg because many days I take about that much anyway and barely notice. The real test will be making it through my whole busy day on that dose (or making it through after decreasing to 1.75!) I wish everyone here luck in their quitting. I can't wait 'til the day I don't have to constantly worry about if I will have enough money for another doctor's appointment and, if I don't, whether or not I will have to quit school. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:36 pm Pretty good day! ----------------------------------- I just wanted to post a little update on my situation. When I woke up this morning I felt well rested and full of energy, which is a sign that I've turned the corner on my latest 10% taper. This last decrease in dosage kicked my butt a little bit - the past few days I woke up with very little energy and had to force myself to get out of bed, although once in motion I was ok. What I didn't know was that I had incorrectly figured how much I had decreased. Instead of going from .50mgs to .45mgs a day I had actually dropped to .40mgs - 20% Doh! & Yay! Dirt - Thank you for the words of encouragement. How are you feeling by the way? You sound like you're doing great. Please continue to keep us updated. Cat - Do you think between the absorbsion and the half-life of suboxone our actual dose is somewhere around 10% less than what we had initially thought we were taking? I hope your taper is going well. annmarie - Let me know what you want to do as far as the next drop. I know now that I'm a little further along than I had thought, but I did pay the price. I couldn't figure out why the last drop was kicking my butt so bad. We're getting really, really close now aren't we? What a great feeling. I'm somewhat apprehensive about my decision to stop going to the clinic, but I think it's the right call for me. When I go this Wednesday I'm going to ask for a script of Clonidine, with three refills if possible. I'm trying to decide if my last visit will be two weeks after that. It's not like I'm getting any counselling, and I haven't felt the urge to use my doc since I started taking sub over a year ago, so why continue to drive all that way and give that creep my money? You know, it's hard to believe, but I'm almost at the point where I'm taking 100 times less than I was originally prescribed. The 32mgs per day that I once took now lasts for three months. Speaking of high doses... on my last visit, I spoke with one of the other patients who told me that they have him on 64mgs a day! I thought it was bull, but when I asked the owner of that zoo about it, he confirmed that some clients were prescribed eight 8mg pills per day because, in his words, they were "...hardcore." Well, I hope things are going well for you too. Keep me posted. Gotta hit the hay! Bill ----------------------------------- DirtRider Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:05 am ----------------------------------- SC, Thanks for the updated chart! AM & Bronze, You guys are doing great, just keep at it! I'm going to update my other post, but I'm happy to say that I'm feeling REALLY GOOD today! Friday night was a bit of a surprise, lol, but check my other post for details! ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:10 pm ----------------------------------- Way to go, Bronze!! I wish I had "accidentally decreased" more than I thought. It would be like winning the lottery. I bet you jumped up and down when you re-calculated, huh? Glad you are feeling better and finding relief!! Today, I decreased to .4/day (.2/.2). I've been writing down my taper schedule/WD symptoms, and I looked back over them today. My last two 10% decreases had milder symptoms that were completely gone around the 48 mark: about 15 hours sooner than my previous decreases of the same %. Could it be that at smaller daily doses, the WD gets a little easier overall? Or am I just getting used to the WD feelings now? Call me a daredevil, but I am entertaining the idea of dropping to .3/day next. I will probably have to stay there for a week at least before I decrease again. It's always a surprise, you know? Dirt, I'll check out your latest post next. Thanks for your kind words! Staying motivated is very important for success, and your support is helping tremendously. Without this entire site, I would be completely lost. Stay strong, everyone! ----------------------------------- dimer35 Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:59 pm ----------------------------------- Just had a quick question regarding the liquid taper method. What kind of oral syringe do you use for this method? The ones I found, will only measure in the .5, .4, .3, etc in between the 1ml and the 2ml and not between 0 and 1ml. Any help is much appreciated. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:00 pm Rain, Rain, Go Away ----------------------------------- annmarie - I hope you are doing well. I sent a few PM's but I know it sometimes takes a few days to receive them. I dropped down to .30 on Sunday on a whim, so the aches have kicked in a little. Craziest dream last night - I was in France visiting relatives, and while walking through a vineyard, I bent down to pick up a grape and was bitten by a venomous snake. As the poison kicked in, I began to ache all over. I knew I should go see a doctor, but I hesitated to do so. A man was trying to convince me to go, but I kept refusing. He then fell unconcious and I realized he too had been bitten... so I hoisted him in a fireman's carry and started to walk in the direction of what I thought was the hospital - and at that point I woke up. Freud would have a field day with that one. :) The clinic that I go to is only open on Wednesdays and Thursdays, but since a state of emergency has been declared, they're closed. It would be impossible to reach anyway, so it does't really matter. I do feel bad for most of the patients though, because those that haven't stashed away some extra medication are going to be in a bad way. I had it in my mind that even though I didn't want to go anymore, I was going to show up for one more visit so I could pick up some Clonidine. Now I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Do you think it's worth getting the Clonidine, or should I just blow them off for good? dimer - If you haven't gotten it already, I sent you a PM in answer to your question. Go luck! I'd be glad to answer any other questions you may have. ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:00 pm Clonidine? ----------------------------------- Bronze, Yes, I would definitely show up to get the Clonodine. It helps with SO MANY of the WD symptoms! It's the best all-around Rx I have ever used for detoxes. Taken at night, it allows for pretty good sleep. The effects can last throughout the whole next day, providing relief from anxiety and a generally Benzo-like calm. It can also banish the chills/skin crawling/rapid heartbeat problems. Could your dream have anything to do with your "should I stay or should I go?" clinic dilemma?? The grape being your addiction? Just a thought. Down to .3? You lucky devil!! I went to .4 a few days ago, and besides an hour of chills this afternoon and some night sweats last night, I feel perfectly fine. Whatever. I'll take it!! I just can't believe I haven't really felt any difference. I should be down to .3 in the next 3-4 days. I've read many posts from people who have jumped from this level (Ratt jumped from .5 and had a pretty easy time.) and they were ok after about 8 days. Knowing I am at a level where I could jump DOES relieve some of the pressure to hurry things along. Looking back, I had a rough time getting from 1.5mgs/day to .5mgs/day, but all my decreases since have been very easy. I'll be home the rest of the week, and will be better about checking this forum. Congrats again on reaching .3!! I'll be there shortly. AM ----------------------------------- dimer35 Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:00 am ----------------------------------- Bronzebeta, Thanks for your reply, but I didn't get your PM. If you could send it again or just post on this thread, I would really appreciate it. Thanks again. ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:36 pm Decreasing from .45mg to .4mg: WD Symptom Update ----------------------------------- I was feeling pretty good on .45mgs/day, so I dropped to .4mgs. It has been a few days, and so far I've only experienced an hour here and there of feeling chilly. The only other WD symptoms I've had are night sweats. The last 3 nights, I have woken up pretty soaked. Overall, I am sleeping much better though. (Also, I am not using ANY other comfort medication right now, not even natural or herbal remedies. The WD hasn't been bad enough.) That's it. No depression, no GI distress, cramping, twitching, RLS, high BP, rapid heartbeat, etc. Nada. I can't believe it. That last drop was a total piece of cake. I don't need to take naps every afternoon anymore, either! The only thing I did differently this time was add a "half-step" of sorts by using a rescue dose of .05mgs on the 2nd day, to make the transition a little more gradual without adding too many extra days to the taper. Bronze, I was thinking about you this morning- about your last decrease to .3mgs. How are you doing? Has this decrease been about the same as the last few (in regards to WD symptoms)? Or different? Just curious to know. I'll be at .3 by the end of the weekend. Here's the general plan: (pretty stable on .4/day) Thu: .375 Fri: .35 Sat: .325 Sun: .3 If I feel ok Sat morning, I'll probably just drop to .3, instead of waiting until Sun. Or if your WD wasn't too bad, do you recommend I just drop straight to .3, and skip the in-between steps? The weather is simply GORGEOUS here!! Sunny, upper 60s. I'm taking full advantage of it. Even just spending time outdoors raises our seratonin levels. (Unless there's a hurricane out there or something, LOL.) I hope there is sunshine where you are, too. AM ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:12 pm Soggy ----------------------------------- dimer - I have two calibrated oral syringes that I use for my taper - one holds a total of 1ml (I use that one for dosing), and the other holds 5mls (I use this one to mix my solution with). If you go to CVS and tell the pharmacist that you need them for your sick child or pet, they more than likely will give them to you for free. Mine even said to come back if I needed any more. Take one of your empty pill bottles and use that to hold your solution. You can adjust the strength depending on your needs. For example - if you mix 16mgs of Suboxone to 16mls of water, then you know that a full 1ml syringe is equal to 1mg of Sub. Right now I'm using 8mgs of Sub to 16mls of water, and since I'm taking .24mgs of sub per day (half in the morning and the other half at night), my morning dose is .24mls (.12mgs) and my evening dose is the same. For me personally, the most comfortable amount of liquid per dose is around .30mls, but many people prefer a little more than that. I use distilled water because it has less contaminants and it does mix much better - no film on the top of the water and less debris on the bottom of the bottle. You should still shake the bottle before you extract a dose though, because the buprenorphine is not completely water soluble. When I give myself a dose, I'm in a sitting position with my head tilted slightly forward for the first ten to fifteen minutes, which is the amount of time that you should leave the dose in your mouth before swallowing it (and of course no eating or drinking for another 15 minutes after that). I squirt the mixture under my tounge, then coat as much surface area as possible - palate, mucus membranes of the cheeks, and gums. Prior to dosing I try to suck as much spit out of my salivary glands as I can, and also swallow as much spit as possible. If I don't do so, my mouth will often fill up with an unacceptable amount of saliva too quickly. Others people probably have a slightly different routine than I do, but I'm just letting you know what works best for me. This may be more information than you needed, but if not, and you have any further questions, please feel free to ask. Good luck! annmarie - Great to hear that you're doing so well. I was thinking about you today, and hoping everything was still going smoothly for you. It's funny, but I'm one of those people who tend to sweat more than usual - and of course I sweat like crazy when I go cold turkey or try to taper off full agonists, but so far I haven't had a problem with that at all with this taper. My symptoms before leveling off after each reduction are for the most part minor - some back and neck aches, a dull throbbing feeling in my legs at night, and a little insomnia. This is going so well that I keep waiting for the hammer to drop, but I just continue to reduce with relatively mild symptoms. It really is quite amazing, and I honestly didn't think that it would be going so well at this point. Can you imagine how many people could be helped if the pharmaceutical companies would just develop a standard taper solution of their own, maybe with a calibrated screw-on dispenser? As you know, I'm now down to .24mgs per day. Like you, things are going so well that I keep pushing harder and harder, and so far so good. I still intend to taper down to maybe .05mgs or so per day, possibly even lower. Whatever discomfort we experience and adjust to now is just that much less that we will feel when we jump - actually, at the rate we're going, I don't think it's going to be a jump so much as a little hop. I appreciate your advice about the Clonidine. I'll definitely go to the clinic at least one more time to pick up a script before I cut my ties with them. You're not even taking any comfort meds? I give you a lot of credit, because I'm still taking something to help me sleep. I have cut my dose of Xanax in half though, which is another testament to how well this liquid taper is going. I've decided that I'm going to continue taking the Wellbutrin for the long haul though. I've suffered from depression for quite some time, and have tried many different medications throughout the years. This one seems to be working the best so far. I only started taking it about six months ago to help me quit smoking, but it's worked so well, why stop taking it now? And yes, I did quit the cigs. Did you see the news about the flooding in Rhode Island? The Pawtuxet River runs right by us, so we got some of the worst of it. Yesterday the National Guard and the State Police showed up with a couple of 5 ton trucks to help evacuate everyone from the area. We decided to stay, along with one of our neighbors. We filled two waterproof containers with essentials and placed everything of worth 4 feet off the ground. My neighbor and I also hoisted a small boat onto the roof of his second floor and lashed it to the gutter just in case we needed it. Things are settling down now, and people are beginning to move back into their homes. What a week! Take care my friend, and continue to keep me updated. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:49 pm ----------------------------------- Well, I made it through the majority of the school/work week on 2 mg. On Monday I will start 1.75. I noticed that I felt different and perhaps a little more tired and I had a little trouble sleeping but it wasn't bad. I would wake up in the middle of the night a few times thinking that I needed another piece but once I laid back down I went to sleep well. At a few points a very strange thing occurred--especially while driving. I felt like I was having very mild withdrawals but, for some strange reason, it felt good. It's so strange I can't even begin to describe it. I think it begs the question: would a "true masochist" enjoy withdrawal? (this question is in jest) Later everyone. P.S. And in most states you can go to the pharmacy and buy insulin syringes without a prescription for less than ten cents a piece. They work great (without the needle) and have graduations of .02 mL. These are the only syringes I've seen in a commercial setting that measure such small amounts. We even use those in the lab at "work" for measuring smaller amounts of inorganic liquids. ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:48 am Taper Getting Easier... ----------------------------------- Bronze, Holy Cow! I picture you running around the house like crazy, shoving all valuables up toward the ceiling, in slight WD the whole time. It can be a madhouse! I was from New Orleans until Katrina, so I am well versed in the "massive storm prep" department. I always thought about the poor people on Methadone (or other opiates) who were going to be completely sick while the clinics were closed in chaos. "It really is quite amazing, and I honestly didn't think that it would be going so well at this point. Can you imagine how many people could be helped if the pharmaceutical companies would just develop a standard taper solution of their own, maybe with a calibrated screw-on dispenser?" If the pharma companies knew how many people were deterred from Sub maintenance due to jump-off horror stories, they would do something about it. I have thought of making an appointment with the Director of Marketing at the nearest office to discuss that exact point. They should update their packaging information. I don't know if you've read it, but they recommend a 6-8 day taper from 16mgs to 2mgs, then a jump. THAT IS INSANE, as we all have figured out. Finding out about Sub is very dependent on word-of-mouth experiences from other/former users. Testimonial marketing is the strongest, most effective form of all. And it is usually the least expensive. We should organize a letter-writing campaign. You're down to .24??!!?? Is it possible to be jealous of someone else's detox? LOL Well, I am inspired by your actions, and am right behind you. I went down to .35 today since I am only having occasional chills and sweating at night. I feel much more patient now, and do want to see how low I can get before the jump. I think you're right: It should be more like a "hop" at that point. I am now well-versed in what a .1 to .05 decrease feels like, and I can't imagine it being much different. I do have some comfort meds and a handful of Benzos for sleep (I have never gotten a "high" or "good feeling" from those, they only make me sleepy.) but I haven't had to use them yet. I am also amazed at how easy it's getting. Seems the most difficult part for me so far were the decreases between 1.5mgs-.6mgs. Maybe due to the half-life winding down from being on larger amounts for so long? Or that I decreased that much in only 2 weeks? I'm just glad it's getting easier!! Wellbutrin? I LOVED taking that!! After 4 weeks, I got a rash and found out I was allergic to it, so I had to stop. But I did cut my cigarette smoking by 75%!! I wish I could take it now, as I still have the Rx. It would help with the attention/focus issues I've noticed at times. Cat, Congrats on starting your taper! You will be surprised at how much easier it is! There is simply NO REASON to jump off 1-2mgs and experience profoundly debilitating WD for weeks on end. I have read threads about that with titles like: "Day 35: Will It Ever End?" Most people can't take the long-term WD, and wind up back on the Sub. You posted: "At a few points a very strange thing occurred--especially while driving. I felt like I was having very mild withdrawals but, for some strange reason, it felt good. It's so strange I can't even begin to describe it." I've noticed atypical WD while doing the taper, as well. Sometimes I don't feel bad, but I know there is "something going on." The WD does come on/increase very slowly, and sometimes waves in and out. The strange part is I don't suffer from the usual "impending doom" depression that I would normally experience during opiate WD. For me, I think that feeling a little something sans craving is a sign of progress by choice. The bulk of my past detoxes have been forced or rushed (out of money, out of DOC, family pressure, etc.), filled with fear and craving, and usually DID NOT involve a taper of more than a few days. A recipe for disaster, if you ask me. When I feel the slight WD during the taper, I know I am making progress. Again, this progress is by choice- MY choice, MY decision- and I have a sense of control and accomplishment. I agree, it does make me happy. There is no doubt I am making the right choice by using a slow taper. You will do great, too. Enjoy the weekend!! I'll be tapering.... AM ----------------------------------- annmarie Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:16 pm Decreases from .4 to .35 to .3 mgs ----------------------------------- Good News! I decreased again from .35 to .3mgs today. I can't believe this... which is why I am posting again so soon: The only WD I've had since reaching .45 has been an occasional chill during the day, sleeping well with no meds, but waking up several times with night sweats. Between the waking up, I do sleep pretty solid. After I dosed this morning, I felt really, really good. Strangely good. Dancing around, manic good. I did go for a long walk yesterday, so that may have had an influence. After the walk my chills stopped, and they haven't returned. So today I have an afternoon bike ride to the park and a coffee shop planned. It is so nice to be able to write something positive about my tapering. I haven't planned anything for the decreases after .3 mgs, so as soon as I decide what I'm going to try, I'll post. Until then... take care, everyone. AM ----------------------------------- annmarie Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:44 pm Day 2 on .3mgs/Day ----------------------------------- Happy Easter Everyone!! It's Day 2 on .3mgs and all is quiet on the western front... I had a great day yesterday, did an easy 3-4 miles on my 70s Schwinn cruiser, had lunch in the park, and accidentally smoked a bunch of pot. (It's all about the honesty, right?) It was wonderful. I came home, ate everything left in the fridge, then fell asleep watching CSI. Very lame for a Sat night, but I've been tapering for weeks. I was exhausted. Earlier this week I wrote: "Today, I decreased to .4/day (.2/.2). I've been writing down my taper schedule/WD symptoms, and I looked back over them today. My last two 10% decreases had milder symptoms that were completely gone around the 48 hr mark: about 15 hours sooner than my previous decreases of the same %. Could it be that at smaller daily doses, the WD gets a little easier overall? Or am I just getting used to the WD feelings now?" I looked at my notes for the decreases between .4 and .3mgs. These decreases became even easier. Now, the WD symptoms were completely gone around the 36 hr mark: about 12 hrs sooner than decreases in the .4's. The symptoms continue to get milder, and disappear even faster. The only WD symptoms: feeling occasionally chilly during the day (exercising stopped this), and the night sweating. The sweats woke me up 2-3 times each night, but I fell back asleep easily and slept solid in between. Well, it's been 32 hrs since decreased my dose again. I haven't felt a thing. I feel even better than yesterday. Not even a single chill. Slept great, as the night sweats are gone. How is it possible to feel this good? Percentage-wise, I used to decrease around 10% every 2-3 days: as fast as I could tolerate without losing too much sleep or being uncomfortable. Now, I'm decreasing up to 12% EVERY DAY...and feeling better than ever. Again, still haven't needed any comfort meds. Yet... The only explanation I can come up with: When I started to taper, even though my daily dose quickly fell to .8 or whatever, I had still recently been taking much higher daily doses. There was still a significant amount of Sub still in my system due to the very long half-life. Overall, I now have a lot less Sub to "wind down" from so maybe that's why the decreases are much, much easier. If anyone has any other ideas, please post. I'm perplexed and amazed that it's this easy. (And frankly a little suspicious... ) If the above IS the reason, it would probably help to sit at a certain low dose (stop decreasing) for 6-10 days at some point, let the built-up Sub go away, then continue. I think a little "half-life wind-down" vacation could facilitate easier decreases with shorter, milder symptoms. I've read many posts where people have tapered to a very low dose, like .25mg, but had only taken that .25 dose for a few days before jumping. I think it would help to take that final dose for a week or longer before jumping. Or skip days at the end. ANYTHING to help cushion the final "wind-down." I have another decrease planned for tomorrow. I'm not worried at all. So far, so good! ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 pm ----------------------------------- It could very well be that you are at the end of your taper. Maybe you are one of those people that can come off of .35 mg or so just like that. Maybe taking .35 mg to "your body" is not really that different from taking nothing at all and you are starting to simply feel the benefits of "abstinence". Wouldn't that be great? ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:27 am Excellent! ----------------------------------- annmarie - You're doing terrific!!! It's going to be over very soon for both of us, I just know it is! Yesterday and today I felt kind of under the weather and my taper was the first thing that came to mind. I now realize that I have a little upper respiratory infection, which is actually a relief. My routine stayed the same though... I walked for an hour today and an hour and a half yesterday. Heck, even some of the dogs on my route have stopped barking at me. :) The pants that I've been wearing for the last couple of years now no longer fit, so I had to rummage around in my closets for some jeans and slacks that I used to wear years ago. I feel more alive than I've felt in a very long time. I'm going to drop to .20mgs tomorrow. I'll have to make up a new solution - 1mg of bup to 4mls of water - so that it actually feels like I'm putting something in my mouth. That comes out to 160 times less Suboxone per day than I was originally prescribed - it's hard to imagine that I was really taking that much. A one day dose last year would now last me nearly six months. It's great not to nod out in the afternoon anymore... and it's definitely a good thing to not be constipated all the time. It's also nice to see my pupils again when I look in the mirror. I'm hoping the doctor at the clinic will give me that script for Clonidine (sic?) this Wednesday, just in case. If she does, I'm outta there - hell, if she doesn't I'm still outta there - it's going to feel good to walk out that stinkin' door for the last time. About four months ago when I brought up my desire to taper with the owner of the clinic, he told me that it was just about impossible to get below .50mgs a day, so why even bother? Well, as one of my old drill instructors was very fond of saying way back in the Stone Age, he was "Wrong! Wrong! F'n Wrong!" Gotta go! I'll check back in a few days. Take care, Bill ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:12 am ----------------------------------- Bronze, You're so funny! I'm glad you are doing well, too. Sorry you're sick, and I hope you feel better soon. Down to .2 today? You lucky devil. I'll be decreasing again, only I haven't quite decided by how much. Don't wanna waste time, but I also don't wanna ruin this good thing I've got going on, either. You posted: "That comes out to 160 times less Suboxone per day than I was originally prescribed - it's hard to imagine that I was really taking that much. A one day dose last year would now last me nearly six months." I did that math, too. I figured out that I am now taking 1/90th of the dose I was taking a few months ago. THAT IS CRAZY!! I realized that one 8mg tablet of Sub, even dosing twice a day, will now last me over a month. When you get down this low, it is definitely exciting!! The exercise DOES help. A few weeks ago, all I could do was a 10 min weight lifting session here and there. After each one, I would have to take a nap. These "naps" turned into 4-7 hours of great sleep. There is no doubt this detox causes fatigue. My friends don't understand why I simply cannot "meet them at the El train" 6 blocks away. There was one day I walked to the end of my block and had to sit down halfway to rest. Exercise seems to banish my WD symptoms though, so I keep doing it. Cat, Oh, how I adore you... "Maybe you are one of those people that can come off of .35 mg or so just like that. Maybe taking .35 mg to "your body" is not really that different from taking nothing at all and you are starting to simply feel the benefits of "abstinence". I wish that were true - and I DO hope you are correct. I cannot think of a rational explanation. Since I have such a long history of opiates and maintenance therapies, I figured I was doomed to yet another wretched detox. I'm older, too and I've heard that can make a difference. I think you are definitely on to something, though. I do feel more awake, alive and-- well, great actually. I did have some difficulty decreasing between 1.x mgs-.6 or so. But then, my 10% decreases meant shaving off .15 to .05 each time. Now, 10% means taking away .02 each time: much less to WD from. My WD seems to appear within 12-18 hours of the decreased dose, disappearing on day 2: somewhat different from most of the experiences I've read about where the WD usually first appears on day 2 or 3, finishing by day 5-7. I'm not sure what this means, but could my body metabolize the Sub faster? Could that mean my final "hop" will be over faster, too? Time will tell, I guess. I've read posts where people HAVE indeed escaped that final WD. I have taken notes about what they did so that I may mimic them. Typically, they have skipped days between doses at the very end, and seemed to have the exercise component in common, too. Thanks to both of you (and EVERYONE here) for being so supportive. It means so much to me. I know that you guys really understand my plight. When I log in to read your progress and comments, it gives me the hope and confidence I need to keep going. I cannot thank you enough. AM PS Oh yeah, it's been 51 hours since my last decrease to .3 and I still haven't felt anything different. I'm a few hours late taking my morning dose, and I'm here typing away, no problem. I love it!! ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:11 am ----------------------------------- Just so you know. If you wish, you can use the "half-life" equation except modified (really it's called exponential decay) in order to determine the dose you will be taking at various points in the future if you continue to go down 10% or so at a time. D = dose you will be on N = Amount you started tapering from p = 1 - your percentage decrease in decimal form t = time in the future you would like to see your dose (must be same units as half-life) HL = time period in which you will be reducing your dose (every two weeks, every week, etc...) D = N*p^(t/HL) You can type it just like that into Google (with numbers of course). For example, if I start at 2 mg and go down 10% every two weeks, in 6 months my dose will be: D = 2*0.9^(24/2) = 0.565 mg The twelve is because there are 24 weeks in 6 months. Another example: If I wanted to be at 0.1 mg in 3 months I would have to decrease my dose by approx. 40% each time. (i.e. 0.6*2 = 1.2, 0.6*1.2 = .72, 0.6*0.72 = 0.432, 0.432*0.6 = 0.2592, 0.2592*0.6 = .15552, 0.15552*0.6 = 0.0933) I hope you can do something with that... ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:53 am Equations ----------------------------------- Thanks Cat! It's funny, in the last two months I've used more algebra than I have in YEARS!! I knew it would be good for something. I have an equation for figuring out how much water to add to x amount of Sub to equal x mgs per x mls in the filter. Does that make sense? It goes like this: A over B equals C over D. A is Total Amt of Sub Used For The Solution B is Total Amt of Water to Add C is Total Dose Per Filter D is Total Amt of Solution Squirted Into Each Filter For example, if I start with an 8mg Sub (A) I want to know how much water to add (B becomes X, the unknown) I want my total dose per filter to be .5 mgs (C) I want to only squirt 20 units or .2mls into each filter (D) 8(mgs Sub) x 20 units(.2mls) per filter divided by .5(mgs) total dose per filter = 320 units (3.2mls of water i'll need to add) Hence, every 20 units (.2mls) of solution will equal a dose of .5mgs Sub. Due to human error, the more units/mls of solution you use per dose will give you a more accurate dose. 20 units, or .2mls per dose works well for me, as my cig filter pieces are small. (I get 4 pieces from each filter: cut in half length-wise, cut in half again. I get 4 little 1/3 inch "boats" each having a curved side and a flat side.) I don't need to keep mixing up different strength solutions this way. I mix only one with a ratio of .1mg Sub per 20 units, (.2mls). From there, you can draw up whatever amount into the syringe, then re-do the equation to see how much more water to add. Of course, this only works when mixing smaller and smaller amounts, as you will be adding more water to dilute what you started with. AM ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:31 am ----------------------------------- I think you must be mistaken. 20 mL on a single filter? Hmmmmmm... I was barely able to fit 1 mL on a half-filter (and I had to do it in sections to let it dry in between). 20 mL is quite a bit of liquid, in fact, that is like 20 times the volume of the filter itself. 320 mL is more than a half-pint! (20 mL is like half of a shot glass or 2 large fully filled syringes) I doubt even something like a polyacrylate (what they put in diapers and tampons to absorb liquids) could hold that much. Maybe just barely. ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:48 am OOPS!! ----------------------------------- Oh my goodness, I meant to type 20 units of solution per filter for the 100 unit syringes: As in .2mls if you're using a 1ml capacity syringe. It's easier not to use the decimal points sometimes. Thanks for noticing that!! I've been doing so much lately, and that taper fog... don't even get me started on that... I have now corrected the above post, sorry for any confusion. ----------------------------------- DirtRider Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:29 pm ----------------------------------- Bronze & AM, You guys are in the home stretch, stick with YOUR PLAN (don't get all silly and "jump" early AM!!!), it sounds like you're both going to be pleasantly surprised! Just to let you guys know, it's been exactly 2 weeks since my last Sub and I FEEL GREAT! My energy is back, my mind is clear, I'm ENJOYING things that I used to just trudge through, I'm back to my old self (not sure if that's good or not, LOL, but I love it!). My only lingering issue is the night sweats, which are a pretty minor inconvenience, last night they FINALLY let up, but just a bit, it was a 1 towel night instead of a 3 towel night, LOL. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS YOU'RE ALMOST THERE! ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:33 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks Dirt!! Two weeks and you already feel back to normal-ish? Amazing! Where do all those Sub Detox horror stories come from? In my opinion, many of them are jumping from being barely stable on 2mgs Sub/day. (Which is really around 5.5mgs due to half-life, and roughly equiv to 80mgs of Methadone.) When you look at it that way, no wonder they're hurting for weeks and weeks. I am so glad you posted today. Now I know that it IS possible to feel good in 2 weeks, instead of months and months. The detox fear is bad enough. The last thing I want to read about is how "doomed" I actually am. Thanks to your success, I know that doesn't have to be the case. Let me just say that I feel so frickin good right now! (No, I did not take any extra, ha ha!) Continuing the taper is going to be easy. I guess I had a lot of Sub built up, so my decreasing was giving me stronger WD symptoms. I thought, "If the rest of the taper is going to be like this, I may as well jump and just get it over with." I see why people go ahead and jump at/around .25-.5mgs. I am very glad I'm sticking with it, as now the reductions are no big deal at all. Keep in mind though, I am only reducing by .025 every day or two, roughly 10% of my daily dose. Today, I'll be taking .275mgs. So, we'll see... The best part about getting down so low -or perhaps it's that my decreases only involve missing .025mgs, I dunno-- is that the WD symptoms, if ANY, disappear so quickly, like within 30-something hrs of the decreased dose. That's why I've started decreasing every 1-2 days instead of waiting a week between them. If I don't feel stable, I can always add an extra day or two if I need it. Ok...back to work. I'll keep you posted. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:34 pm ----------------------------------- annemarie & bronzebeta - Thank you both for sharing your inspiring taper stories. When I started the liquid taper method & this thread, I figured I might as well go ahead and be the guinea pig for everyone and see how it worked. I was really hoping it would work - for my own benefit, but also because I wanted there to be at least one place online where a person searching for a taper method could find good info and a success story. And now I can come here and read your stories, as well as others, and know that there are probably lots of other folks who have successfully used this method to taper. I love seeing this community grow, and seeing the positive impact of peer support on the members of the forum. So thank you for taking the time to write about your taper process. I wish you both all the success in the world - and I think if you both keep up with your positive attitude and the exercising and taking good care of yourselves, you will do amazingly well. Well done & keep up the good work. Allie ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:59 pm ----------------------------------- Just letting you guys know that my first day on 1.75 mg was no different from any other day. I really could tell no difference. In fact, I forgot to take the second part of my dose until just now. I'm going to stay at 1.75 for a week and try stepping down to 1.5 next Monday. If it doesn't work I'll go back up to 1.75 for another week. I really can't wait to feel normal again and like I don't have these virtual handcuffs on all the time. Now one of my first worries when I am low on money won't be "What if I run out of Suboxone? How will I get more??" And, just so you know, if you are having a problem with your solution getting "funky", try the 1 drop of benzyl alcohol (~.07 mL) per 8 mL thing, it works great. And I really don't see any way it could hurt you seeing as though they use the same concentration (9 mg per mL) of it to make injections bacteriostatic. ----------------------------------- annmarie Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:40 pm Great Job, Cat! ----------------------------------- Cat, It's good to hear you're adjusting well. It only takes a few decrease experiments to see how much you can drop while staying comfortable. It sounds like you're starting off at the right place. The liquid method is really great for controlling any WD symptoms. If they happen, or become annoying, it is so easy to measure out a tiny, accurate adjustment. Breaking up misc crumbs is unpredictable, and could easily sabotage recently-made reductions. The liquid method gives us so much more control without setting us back. If you feel fine after a few days, try another decrease. I will hold at a certain amount until I know I am through any WD from the last decrease. Sometimes I can speed up my schedule, sometimes I need to slow it down. It's good to have either option. Soon, you will taking such a tiny dose, and one tablet will last for weeks. That should help alleviate some of the financial issues. These pills are NOT cheap. And all those Dr visit fees... Yikes! Keep up the good work, and keep us filled in. AM ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:06 pm From .3 to .27 to .25mgs ----------------------------------- Quick Taper Update: I took .3mgs for 2 days, then .27 for 1 day. I have only had a chill once or twice, and some sweating at night. I still sleep very well, and have not taken any comfort meds. I feel quite good, and have been out bike riding, walking, socializing, etc with no problems or depression. I do get tired in the afternoon, but a cup of coffee around 3pm has helped immensely. Today I'll be taking .25mgs. Patience is key, now. After all, the entire point of doing a slow taper is to avoid bad WD symptoms. I try to remind myself of that when I want to speed things up too much. If I sleep well tonight, I'll decrease again tomorrow. Only time will tell... AM ----------------------------------- setmefree Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:22 pm ----------------------------------- I just wanted to quickly tell all of you who are posting your taper stories, "THANKS" so very much for taking the time to do this!! I find it so impressive and to me, it says a lot about how well you all have done in your recoveries, that you have the patience to do your tapers the 'right' way! It seems like the people who spill bitterness and anger all over the place when they talk about their horrid withdrawal from buprenorphine simply do not have the patience to taper properly. It seems like they'd rather suffer and have someone (a doctor) or something (bupe) to blame instead of accepting accountability for their addiction, taking their recovery into their own hands and getting better. It also seems to me that those folks are almost doomed to relapse......after all, they can't even slow down, follow directions, and wait until the proper time to get off Sub. In my opinion, if you cannot taper down on a partial-agonist that provides no 'high,' what on earth makes you think you're ready to come off it? It always comes down to the fact that buprenorphine is but one part of a much bigger picture of recovery. You've got to have all the other pieces well in place before you should try life without it. I don't know....that's just how it seems to me. Anyway, you guys' stories give me hope that if and when I am ready to try life without Suboxone, it can be done without all the suffering that some have reported. Diary of a Quitter and the rest of you who have followed suit here with your stories are doing a great service to all of us and I thank you! And I wish you continued success with your tapers. ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:22 pm Slow Taper, Easy Detox ----------------------------------- DOAQ and Setmefree, Wow, such kind words, and such solid advice. If I hadn't found this thread last month, I would've been unnecessarily suffering while detoxing off Sub. Like many people, I was under the impression that 1mg was not a big deal, and would be easy to jump off of. WRONG!! I am so relieved to have DOAQ's (and many other's) stories to use as a guide. I would love nothing more than to post a success story!! It would be my way of returning the favor to DOAQ, and "paying it forward" to anyone who is searching for answers/solutions. Setmefree wrote: "It seems like the people who spill bitterness and anger all over the place when they talk about their horrid withdrawal from buprenorphine simply do not have the patience to taper properly." Over the past week I have been digging through the web, finding and reading Sub "jump" stories. I have read over 20 accounts from people who have detoxed, what they did/did not do, and what happened during WD. It seems the same pattern repeats itself over and over. Mainly, the people who experienced weeks of WD had 2 things in common: One, they jumped from doses higher than 1mg. Two, if they jumped at a lower amount (usually .3-1mg), they had not been stable or taking the lower dose/jump dose for more than a few days: as in, they were tapering way too fast. One thing is for certain, if you have been a longer-term user of Sub, the final jump dose (and how long you have been stable on very low doses) dramatically determines the severity and length of the WD. If the worst-case scenario is dealing with WD for 2-4 weeks, then it makes total sense to taper to a dose that would barely produce WD symptoms to begin with. That way, even it "dragged on for weeks" it would be so mild I doubt you would notice it. I'm testing that theory as we speak, so let's pray it works!! I am currently decreasing almost 10% EVERY DAY now, and I am only getting a chill or two during the day, and some night sweating. At higher doses, a 10% decrease would take 2-4 days before all the WD had vanished. So it seems that once I got below daily doses of .5, the tapering was becoming much easier. And that's great news. Today, I will be taking .22mgs, and so far I have only sneezed twice today. I am still not having any WD or depression like I experienced from decreases at higher doses. My greatest issue is trying to remain patient. Everyone here helps out SO MUCH with that. You guys have no idea what a huge motivation you have been! Thank you all, AM ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:35 pm I threw my fat-pants out today! ----------------------------------- diaryofaquiter - Thank you so much! I do appreciate the compliments, but really, you were the first... the original inspiration for the rest of us. So thank you once again for being the trailblazer. annmarie - Glad to hear you're doing well. I sent you another email today, but again, for some strange reason there seems to be a delay in getting and receiving them. Setmefree - Your kind words are appreciated. Those of you maintaining this site do more good than you could possibly know - you offer hope to kindred spirits. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I went to the clinic on Thursday and told the doctor that this would be my last visit - he wrote out a prescription for Suboxone, but I told him that he could keep it. I did ask for and received a script for 30 Clonidine, just in case, although I don't know if I'll be using them or not. All things considered, I feel pretty damn good. I'm down to .05mgs of sub twice a day - a big difference between that and the 32mgs I was taking about 5 months ago (it's hard to believe, but it's 320x less per day) - and dramatically different than the 640+ mgs of Oxycontin that I was taking per day 16 months ago. I'm going faster than I had planned (decreasing every 3 days now), so I'm a little more achey than I would be if I had allowed the full ten days to level off after each reduction. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter every day, and this will be over very soon, I'm sure of that. But I also know my weakness's and I realize that no matter how much time passes, I can never get to the point where I fool myself into thinking that I can dabble with opiates and get away with it unscathed. That may have been true at one point in my life, but as they say "That was then, this is now." I'll check back in a few days. Take care everyone. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:05 pm Feelin' Good! ----------------------------------- Shrodinger's Cat - Had a little wildlife emergency and was distracted while I was typing my last message. Unfortunately, I sent it without addressing you as I had originally intended. It sounds like you're doing well with your taper, but I still wanted to wish you the very best if I already haven't. I do have a question for you. While in the middle of my taper, I threw out some solutions that I had made because I wasn't positive that they hadn't lost some strength over time. Where would you suggest that the benzyl alchohol can be purchased for the cheapest price? ----------------------------------- annmarie Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:35 am From .25 to .15mgs ----------------------------------- Hey Everyone! Glad to read the tapers are still going well. I have been busy working, so I haven't had a lot of time to post. But as usual, I've also been continuing my taper. Here's a quick update: I took: .25 for 1 day .22 for 1 day -----Felt fine both days, slept well. .20 for 1 day -----Had a few chills, off and on during the day. Had some anxiety today, exercised, and it went away. .15 for 2 days ---At the end of the 1st day @.15, I had some chills. The morning of the 2nd day @.15, I felt like I had a head cold, sneezing, clogged ears, feverish. I thought, "Oh no, here it comes... Is that Death standing in the corner?..." I climbed back into bed and watched a movie. Then, around 3pm I felt much better. I cooked a huge meal, took a 5hr nap, ate again, and still slept really well, with only light sweating near morning. I still felt fine this morning, so today I am trying out .12mgs. We'll see what that does, if anything. Besides a few Advil, I still haven't had to take any comfort meds. I almost broke down yesterday morning and took a piece of a Benzo, but after a few hours the WD vanished. I'm glad I held out. I'm trying to stay positive, as I'm SOOO close now. It's exciting, actually!!! ...back to work now... AM Oh, Cat: Post your progress! I've been thinking about you. I read above you were doing well, so that's good news! ----------------------------------- T Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:13 pm ----------------------------------- Hi all, this is my first time posting, but I have been around for awhile in the background. The reason for my post is I just came back from my appointment with my Sub doc. He was telling me that in the States they are coming out or already have come out with a .4mg tab to help with tapering. Has anyone else heard this? This would help alot of people tapering. I also want to thank all you guys for what you have been doing on this site, you guys have given me courage and strength to keep going. One day at a Time! ----------------------------------- donh Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:11 pm ----------------------------------- If you are speaking of the United States, I very much doubt this is true. I have not seen, read, nor heard anything from anyone that United States Federal regulations are allowing for anything other than the current 8mg or 2mg tablet. I am very sure that .5mg tablets are available in some locations throughout the world. In fact there have been discussions here about how nice it would be to have access to a .5mg Bup pill when tapering as it would be so much easier to accurately dose with. A Bup patch is another option that is available in some parts of the world. However, currently it's either 8/2 or 2/.5 in the United States and I am not aware of any plans or movements to change that. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:17 pm Getting close! ----------------------------------- I nearly forgot to take my evening dose, and since I'm feeling so good I decided to drop down to .025mgs every twelve hours. Once I cut that in half I'll probably jump. As it stands right now, I'm taking such a low dose that I'm pretty sure I could stop right now without much of a problem... but you know what? I would rather feel little or no withdrawal at the end of this little opiate waltz, and no one here gets any extra points for unnecessary pain, so what's another week or so? I will say this "I know all to well what withdrawal and PAWS feels like when you stop taking a very high and constant dose of Oxycontin, and I don't think I'd care for what would probably be some of the same long term craptastic agony when jumping from a relatively high dose of a partial agonist like suboxone. But so far, this has been nothing like that at all." It seems apparent that the ability to accurately control the exact dose of bup with the liquid taper method was the key to success after all. Add a positive attitude, daily exercise, and a proper diet and things are that much easier. Sobriety you slippery bastard, I've got you by the tail and I don't intend on letting you go anytime soon, if ever. I've got a busy week, but I'll try to check back here on Friday at the latest. Have a good night everyone! ----------------------------------- T Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:02 am ----------------------------------- donh, I never heard anything of the patches, but my doc said he was going to a conference that is being held in the United states next week, I mentioned to him about the liquified taper method which he said was interesting but could not comment, he did mention to me about a .4mg tab that will be discussed at this meeting, which if you think about does not make much sense, i would think a .5 would be much more practical. Anyway I am very interested in going with the liquified taper method but still have a ways to go. I just started on suboxone on Jan 8th 2010, it took me about two weeks to level off at 24mg, I continued this dose for 8 weeks then started tapering. I have since decreased from 24 to 20 to 16 to 12 and I just starting monday at 8mg. I feel alot better than I thought i would, no major changes yet. I want to be able to handle my taper without compromising my work ( nobody knows but my wife and doc that I'm a recovering addict ) If anyone can suggest a good taper from 8mg for me I would be happy to consider it. I guess a bit of history of why I'm here and on suboxone would probably be helpfull. I have been addicted to Oxycontin since 2003 starting at a low dose 10 - 30 mg a day, by the end of it I was taking between 6 & 8 80's a day. It took me a long time to admit my addiction to my doctor but it was the best thing I ever did. I would like to take this time and thank everyone for sharing their experiences on this site, it has made a huge impact on my recovery, I guess knowing that I'm not alone in this is comforting although I also wish that no one would ever have to go through this as well. I know that getting off Sub is one thing, the real challenge lies after that, but I'm sure that once I feel my feet back on the ground and back in charge of the path that I travel, I will be able to look back and learn from my mistakes. Thank you all ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:39 pm Taper From .15 to .09mgs ----------------------------------- Here's the latest on my taper progress. I took: .15 for 1 day .12 for 1 day -----Felt fine both days, slept well but had fairly moderate sweating near morning. .10 for 1 day -----Some chills, off and on during the day. Had a few mood swings today, but exercised and ate well. and .09 Today ---I had some chills this morning and my skin felt hot until around noon. My general plan is to decrease by .01/day while I allow the half-life to wind down a bit. I am going to try to be patient. Only a week or two left!! AM ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:15 am ----------------------------------- A quick update: Things were going so well that I went to 1.6 mg quicker than anticipated. I had slight WDs occasionally throughout the week but it was easily tolerated. On Monday I will be starting 1.4 mg. If that's not enough I will go up to 1.5. At this rate I should be ready to come off in half the time I expected. I think what I will end up doing, though, is just take the Suboxone until I run out. Even if it takes a year I will keep tapering lower and lower until I just run out. That way, maybe I can even escape much of the PAWS that I hear so much about (I've never been off opiates long enough to experience that since I started about 5 years ago). I hope everything is well! P.S. An alternative to the liquid method that allows you to actually take your dose to work/school is to just weigh out your dose. Get a milligram scale for a hundred dollars or so off eBay and use that. Yes, those scales are cheap and crappy but they should be accurate within +/- 0.002 g. For example, a Suboxone weighs 394 mg. So, if you wanted to take 1 mg of buprenorphine, you would just weigh out 49 mg. If you wanted to take 0.1 mg just weigh out 5 mg of the pill (this will give you an idea of how minuscule 5 mg is. Imagine how .1 mg would look. Hint: often you can't see it with the naked eye). This is likely not as accurate as the liquid method but I doubt it would make a significant difference as long as you know how to use the scale well. I'm going to take my Subs to the lab next week and weigh them down to the 0.00001 g (using an 'analytical balance'). Don't expect to just get one of those, though. I found a 30 year old one on eBay (used) and it was still several hundred dollars. Cheap milligram SCALES (there's a huge difference between a scale and a balance) are VERY cheap on eBay though. ----------------------------------- annmarie Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:37 pm Taper From .09 to .06 mgs ----------------------------------- Cat, Glad to hear you are doing so well!! It sounds like you are handling the reductions just fine. That's good news. You may very well escape PAWS. I have detoxed many times, but only experienced it twice in my life: once coming off morphine, and the other, 2mgs of Sub via Naltrexone. Here's the latest on my taper progress. I took: .09 for 1 day .08 for 1 day -----Felt pretty good both days. Had some chills (off and on) during the morning. Slept well, but had night sweats. .07 for 2 days ----- Still having chills, sneezing throughout the day and feeling a little tired in the afternoons, so I added an extra day at this amount. Tomorrow, I'm trying out .06mgs. Unfortunately, even at these low dose amounts, I can still feel the reductions. I find the skin-crawling/chills to be highly annoying (my most HATED detox symptom), but that's really the only symptom I am having during the day. No depression, anxiety or GI problems. Overall, still easier than equivalent reductions from higher amounts. AM ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:37 pm No problems! ----------------------------------- Arrrrggghh!!!! My whole post just dissapeared. Noooooo!!! Everything is going fine... a little tired sometimes, but that's about it. annmarie - Wonderful to hear that you're doing well. If you need to take some comfort meds, take them. No harm! Check back soon. ----------------------------------- annmarie Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:25 am Taper From .06mgs to Zero via Accidental (Uneventful) Detox? ----------------------------------- Hey Kids, here's where my taper gets interesting: I took .06 on Sunday -----Felt pretty good, sneezing a little and still having chills off and on during the morning. If I exercise, they go away for the rest of the day. I slept well but had fairly moderate sweating near morning. I have been getting up very early, like 3-5am. .014 on Monday (A third of my daily dose, and a decrease from yesterday) -----Chills in the morning, but by noon I started feeling much better. I skipped my 2nd dose, just to see what would happen/how sick I would get. To my surprise, I continued to feel even better. So then I skipped my 3rd dose, and still had no WD. I felt comfortable, peaceful, happy. I took 1/6th of a Benzo (They really knock me out, I just don't need any more than that.) I slept well but still had light sweating near morning. Today/Tuesday: No Sub for 30 hrs -----No chills, no sweating in weird places, not freezing anymore. I sneezed once this morning, but I still feel warm, relaxed, joyful. So...I don't really know what's happening, but it's been over 30 hours since my last dose, and I've continued to feel awesome. I promise: I have MONTHS of Sub in my closet (YEARS if taking .06/day). If I needed any, I'd take it, as I had planned on another week or two of skipping days anyway. I have a theory: Could it be possible that my doses became so low at some point that they were no longer orally bioavailable? I wondered why my chills weren't going away even after I'd dosed. I just thought it was the half-life leftovers coming out from prior doses. And this past week, I did have a day or two where I thought I was "feeling that last decrease" a little more than usual. (That was the day I posted I almost had to take a Benzo, but it only lasted 4-5 hours, then the WD disappeared.) Could that have been my detox? I mean, it was so mild and short, I didn't even realize it was happening. Is it possible to "accidentally detox" yourself without noticing it? Even when you know it's coming and you are anxiously expecting it? Even though you are reminded of it with every WD symptom? Complete miracle. For the 4-5 days since then, I continued to take even less- yet I kept getting better every day. I mean, I feel 90% normal already: all peppy and walking around smiling. Even though I had plenty of comfort meds around, I only took 1/6th of a Benzo (last night) and about 10 Advil during the ENTIRE two month taper. You all know how we LOVE to take things, especially when it's justified, but I really didn't need to. That has NEVER been the case before, and I've detoxed at least 25 horrible times in my life. I'm all about taking enough comfort meds to "sleep right through it." I never even touched the Benadryl. Geez! If anyone has any suggestions or ideas about what's going on, please post back. I can't really explain it, but yesterday morning, I had this "Aha!" moment where I sort of felt like I didn't need to take any more Sub. Very strange. Like maybe it was my body telling me it wasn't getting anything anyway, so why bother? I'll check in later, hopefully with good news. I have a full day of biking and shopping to do. AM ----------------------------------- setmefree Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:34 pm ----------------------------------- Wow Annemarie!! That is fantastic! I'm so glad you're feeling so well! I agree with you on the wondering really how much bup you've been actually getting with your tiny doses. I think your theory is entirely possible.....maybe for you that little dose wasn't really having much of an impact because you just truly weren't absorbing it. I believe that it's possible that we all absorb and metabolize drugs differently enough to make a big difference. For example, back when I still using full-agonists, I could have a 'clean' urine drug screen in as little as 36 hours whereas others would take as long as 3 - 5 days. I've always been curious about that. I know there are a lot of variables that come into play like hydration status, liver and kidney function and so forth. I don't know....I wonder. I've also wondered about my absorption of buprenorphine. I see others talk about dissolving their pills in their mouth for an hour, yet mine is dissolved in just a few minutes no matter what method I try. It just makes me wonder also how much of the medication I'm actually getting compared to others. Then I find myself thinking, "well, I'm taking 2mg but maybe I'm really only getting 1mg." Questions which probably do not have answers! In any case, what you feel is what you feel....no denying that! I suppose you will know soon enough. If, in fact, you were getting the tiny dose you have been taking, perhaps because of the long half life you've still got just enough in your system that the w/d symptoms haven't truly set it. Surely if it's going to happen, it will within the coming day or so. Here's hoping you're done!! If not.....no biggie.....just go back to your original plan and taper a bit more. But this is fantastic! Thank you again ever so much for posting your 'saga' for us! ----------------------------------- annmarie Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:35 pm ----------------------------------- Hi SetMe, You posted: "If, in fact, you were getting the tiny dose you have been taking, perhaps because of the long half life you've still got just enough in your system that the w/d symptoms haven't truly set it." Yeah, that was my first guess, too. I always expect there's no "easy off" with detoxes. Although I remain suspicious/cautious, I started coming up with other theories because of the unusual change in my tapering. I was following the same schedule every time, but my outcome was suddenly different: My WD felt a little heavier than usual around a week ago, lagged for a few days, then every day I started to feel better overall. If I were taking the same dose every day, then I would've thought I was becoming more stable at that particular dose. However, I cut my doses by 20% every day during that time (twice as fast as my regular decreasing schedule), and my WD symptoms faded out. Until finally, I stopped taking it altogether (been almost 36hrs now) and I don't have a single WD symptom. That's when I thought maybe I had already been detoxing, and now I'm on the upswing. I don't even have high blood pressure. Whenever I've quit/reduced/skipped Sub in the past, I have always felt at least some WD with the first 12-24 hours. But, then I always seem to come back to agreeing with what you said, SetMeFree: There's no rule book. We're all different. It'll be a few more days until I know for sure... I know people rarely escape detoxes. But a girl can dream... AM ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:55 pm Good to go ----------------------------------- Hey all, Just wanted to let you guys know that I tapered down to 12.5 micrograms (yeah, I'm aware that's a crazy low dose) and haven't taken any sub this week. Nothing really to speak of at this point - maybe a bit tired in the morning, but otherwise I feel better than ever. I did miss one day of exercise because of the rain, but no problems there either. You know, I tried over and over to taper off Oxycontin before I started taking Suboxone, but it just wasn't happening... no way, no how. Why the drug manufacturers don't market buprenorphine in a liquid form for those who wish to taper is beyond me. It just makes sense, if you can accurately control your dose and so decrease by whatever amount is comfortable for you, and improve on your diet and exercise, you will heal over time so you don't have to go through what seems like unending hell. Anyway, I'm just glad this medication exists at all. Gotta get back to work! I'll check in periodically to let you know what's what. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:57 pm ----------------------------------- "I've also wondered about my absorption of buprenorphine. I see others talk about dissolving their pills in their mouth for an hour, yet mine is dissolved in just a few minutes no matter what method I try. It just makes me wonder also how much of the medication I'm actually getting compared to others. Then I find myself thinking, "well, I'm taking 2mg but maybe I'm really only getting 1mg." Questions which probably do not have answers!" The only way to truly know your own half-life and absorption factors is to take blood samples at different times after taking (and during absorption of) your dose. 0.012 mg diluted in your blood is an unimaginably low concentration. For example, .012 mg is 12 μg (micrograms). That is 12,000 ng (nanograms). Usually, blood concentrations are measured in ng/mL or ng/L. I think the average female has about 4.5 L of blood. 12,000ng/4.5 L = 2667 ng/L or 2.667 ng/mL! And that doesn't even take into account the fact that buprenorphine dissolves somewhat in lipids (whether or not this makes a big difference I'm not sure). So, if for some reason you lost a liter of blood there would only be .0026 mg of buprenorphine in it. I think you have probably reached the point to where the amount of bupe. you are taking is pharmocologically/physiologically insignificant. If what I remember is correct--that 0.3 mg of bupe. is "equivalent" to 30 mg of morphine--then .012 is similar to 0.36 mg of morphine! I have a really good feeling that you are done. ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:59 pm Taper Update ----------------------------------- Hey Everyone!! Well, it's been 60 hours since my last dose of .014 (14 micrograms). And still nothing's happening. I slept like a baby last night without taking anything, sneezed twice this morning, and felt a little chilly (but it is in the upper 50s here). I ate a big breakfast, rode my bike to the grocery store (3 miles), hauled everything back home (uphill, and naturally it began to rain), ate some more, hot shower, and now I'm about to tackle the laundry. In a nutshell, I still feel good. I'm not sweaty or restless, but I am a little foggy. I found myself standing in the middle of the room, just staring into space... I even think there was "background music" playing in my head. So I made myself stand there until I remembered what I was trying to do. After a while, I just started giggling. And I never did remember why I was there. (Note To Self: Don't do anything of relative importance today.) Bronze, yeah, on full agonists, I NEVER remembered thinking, "I just don't feel like I want to take any more, so I'm just gonna taper down and quit." You're right, I wouldn't have stood a chance. Tapering down and staying off never worked. Sub is an intelligent solution, for sure. Glad to hear you are feeling good. So I'm guessing your "jump" experience has been as easy and temperate as mine so far? This makes all that tapering worth it, huh? I'll post back soon, but so far so good. Up next: Day 3... AM ----------------------------------- annmarie Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:49 pm Taper Update: Day 4 Post-Jump ----------------------------------- Well, it's been 86 hours since my last dose (bottom of Day 4). I slept almost 10 hours last night, having only light sweats near morning. I woke up feeling fine. WD symptoms: I sneezed twice, and still wanted to take a nap. So I guess I'm tired or having a little fatigue. I've been very productive today, and I haven't felt this physically normal since mid February when I started my taper. I feel upbeat, calm, and finally warm (and dry) all over. I am planning to go to dinner tonight to celebrate. Since my WD has lessened and I have felt progressively better since Monday, I am fairly confident I am beyond any discomfort. Although tomorrow's only Day 5, so we'll see. AM ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:40 am ----------------------------------- I was thinking about something... This is probably an oversimplification but fascinating. At 2.667 ng/mL that means there are approx. 3.4 trillion buprenorphine molecules per mL (or cc, cm^3, etc...) of blood. That's about 1.5*10^16 molecules total. If the half-life "theory" worked perfectly--meaning that every ~37 hours half of what was in the blood was eliminated--it would take about 54 half-lives for every single molecule to be removed (83 days). I wonder how close to reality this is. These half-lives have their roots in the rate equations of statistical kinetics and in nearly ideal reaction conditions these half-lives work very well (statistically) down to the very last of the molecules/atoms. The only problem is the staggering complexity of the human body (and organisms in general). I wonder if it still works that way in the end even considering all the factors. What do you think? Also, don't let this alarm you. 3.4 trillion sounds like a lot but it's really not when it comes to atoms and molecules. Each cell in your body contains about 200 trillion atoms (and there are trillions of cells in your body). ----------------------------------- annmarie Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:02 pm Taper Update: Day 6 Post-Jump ----------------------------------- Bottom of Day 6 (almost 130 hours since last dose) Well, nothing really happened. I feel quite good, slept all through the night, no sweating or chills. I didn’t need a nap yesterday either, so that’s an improvement. Basically, I think I’m done! I’ve had some terrible detoxes, and a really lengthy/intense WD from Sub before (jumped from 2mgs: mistake!). But this tapering process was completely different!! No big crash at the end. It just fizzled out. No big deal. I wouldn’t have missed a day of work or obligation. The moral to my story? It IS entirely possible to stop using Sub without suffering an uncomfortable, never-ending, mortifying detox. I hope my experience will help relieve some of the anxiety of quitting. I absolutely promise that if you are patient, and taper to a very low dose, you will have an easy, uneventful jump. It’s a hop, really. You can totally do it! I’ll post soon with an update, but pm me if there are any questions I haven’t answered. Thanks everyone, for supporting me during the taper. And especially, a big Thank You! :lol: to Diary of a Quitter, without whom all of this would never have been possible. AM ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:33 pm ----------------------------------- Congratulations! I am already down to 1.2 mg. I sneeze a little each morning (I have never been a "multiple sneezer" but now I sneeze like 10 times in a row each morning) and if I forget to take my dose by nighttime I feel pretty bad but, so far so good. I think that even if I had to stop right now I might be able to do it. If coming off ~1 mg is half as bad as 2 mg then it would definitely be doable but I still don't know if I could resist "just getting a couple of percocets to sleep". ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:57 am Two weeks! ----------------------------------- An update - it's been two weeks since my last dose of Suboxone and I feel super. I had the expectation prior to jumping that I would experience a very low degree of PAWS for 2 1/2 to 3 weeks beginning on day 4. What actually happened was quite different - I felt fine for the first 3 days, then a little under the weather (a bit tired, but no depression, GI issues, sweating, nausea, restless legs, etc.) on days 4 & 5, bouncing right back on day 6 and feeling great since then. A big thanks to Dr. Junig for creating and maintaining this site. And thanks again to everyone who offered their support... particularly annmarie for being patient enough to listen to me while I relentlessly bent her ear, and DiaryofaQuiter for having been the first to show that the liquid taper method was a viable option. You guys rock! I'll check back in a few weeks, and try to stop by at least once a month thereafter. If anyone has any questions about my taper, please feel free to send a PM anytime. Take care, and best of luck to all of you. Bill ----------------------------------- donh Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:04 pm ----------------------------------- It's great to hear that you are doing so well! Obviously it's one hell of an inspiration to many of us out here. Although I am nowhere near ready to stop Bup at this point, I certainly hope that day will arrive at some point. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people on here that stop Bup and then continue to post and let us know how things are going. I really hope that you will continue to post for us. In fact, if you are able, more than once a month would be greatly appreciated - perhaps once a week? I am very certain that there are many readers that would love to hear how things honestly go for you over the next months and perhaps year or two. The more you can let us know - the better off we all will be for it. Please don't think that coming back to post that "everything is going well" is boring or somehow not useful. It is extremely useful! On the other hand, if things should not go as well as you hope, that will be just as important. In fact, whatever the honest truth is will be greatly appreciated! I wish you the best of luck as you continue addiction-free. Please don't become a stranger. ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:13 pm Taper Update: Day 12 Post-Jump ----------------------------------- Thanks DonH! I am a little amazed myself that it wasn't a hassle to finally jump! Here's an update: Days 7-10: I felt tired, sneezed a few times during the day, had some chills in my upper arms (but only in the mornings), and did feel a little depression. Nothing like the typical "Impending Doom, Where is my life going?" depression, though. Commercials weren't making me cry like during a regular opiate detox. Days 11 and 12: The slight malaise has lifted, and I am not as tired anymore. I sleep through the night without any weird sweating. My appetite has been back for over a week, I am able to eat anything I want, and drink coffee without feeling wired. Every now and then I suddenly think, "Oh, did I take my Sub?" And then I smile...and think about how nice it is to not have that worry anymore. Those thoughts are not cravings, but merely a conditioned response since taking it was such a habit for so long. In fact, I forgot how many days it had been since jumping, and I had to get out the calendar. So I guess I am moving forward in my life now, and will probably look into some type of after care. Not because I feel like I may relapse, but because I know from past experience that it will greatly increase my chances of staying sober. So I am going to do it anyway. I'll keep posting, too. Thanks again everyone! For all your support!! AM ----------------------------------- luvmy3 Sat May 01, 2010 12:12 am thank you ----------------------------------- Wow Annemarie your posts are so great thank you so much i feel so much more capable and strong after reading your taper. I have just recently started my taper, have a ways to go at 4mg a day now, but i have been scared to death. i have wanted to taper for a long time and have been so petrified by the horrible withdraws stories that i had convinced myself i should just keep on trucking at 8mg a day. Reading your posts has given me the courage and strength to continue moving forward with my recovery and i know that i can and will be able to successfully taper off suboxone soon. Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Best wishes to you in your continued journey of recovery. ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Sat May 01, 2010 11:10 am ----------------------------------- Went from 1.2 to 1 mg last week. I felt pretty bad 2 of the days and had to take an extra 0.1 mg. Instead of going to .08 next week I might go to .09. I might stay at 1 mg, though, because finals are next week. It all depends. So far so good though. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue May 04, 2010 4:30 pm checking in ----------------------------------- A couple of people asked if I would post more frequently about my situation, so I'm checking in a little earlier than I had originally planned. It's been 3 weeks since I took my last dose of Suboxone and everything is going great. My nose has been running these past few days, but I do have allergies and the pollen count in my area is very high. My right shoulder was bothering me a little bit one day last week too, but again, that's to be expected due to all the soft tissue damage that I've sustained throughout the years, as well as the surgeries to correct some of those problems. What I'm really getting at is... these minor issues have nothing at all to do with my jump, and everything to do with living life the way I did prior to abusing opiates. I actually feel much better than I've felt in many years, including the period of time when I 'was' taking the oxycontin as prescibed - probably because of the diet and daily exercise - so, no complaints there. Mentally I seem to be operating at 100% - I haven't experienced any depression or confusion. I've been getting a lot of things done that I had been meaning to do for a long time, but never seemed to find the time or have the energy to tackle. On the rare occasion that I do think back to when I was in active addiction, I always make it a point to remember just how bad things were and how far I've come. No thoughts of using whatsoever - it's obviously not an option, and at the risk of repeating myself, no amount of mental gymnastics will allow me to rationalize that I could somehow be in control of the situation if I 'was' using again. So that's about it. I'll be sure to check back as frequently as I possibly can. Take care everyone! ----------------------------------- setmefree Tue May 04, 2010 4:58 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the update and I'm glad you're doing so well! That's fantastic! I want to put up a big bold post sometimes on the other sites I hear about that are so anti-Sub.......Look here people......it can and has been done.....people can get off bupe without some big crazy horror story! You just have to be committed and patient! ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue May 04, 2010 11:38 pm ----------------------------------- I try to stay away from those sites because all they do is get me fired up. It's the same old story over and over - "Suboxone is horrible... the doctor got me hooked... I should have just tapered off my doc... the withdrawals are the worst, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"! Yeah right, they should have kept on shooting up, stealing for a fix, risking their lives, their relationships and their freedom rather than take a daily maintenance dose of sub. Reading that drivel makes me want to bang my head against a wall until I knock myself out. Anyway, thank you very much for the kind words. It means a lot to me. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sat May 08, 2010 2:00 pm ??? liquid taper ----------------------------------- Hi everyone- I am going to try a taper soon. This is the only taper plan I have come across. If I understand you correctly you started by taking an 8mg tab to get 800mcg. or as you said.8mg. Why did you no just get the 2mg taps, and cut them in half, then do liquid taper on the 2 mgs when you go down low? The other thing that really strikes me as bizarre. Why is there no formal dosage schedule provided by the pharmaceutical industry? Has Dr. Junig (who has commented positively on this liquid method) ever asked the company why they do not provide a taper series of tabs? If he has what is their answer? Even with methadone, there is encouragement to taper down and the availablitly to taper to micro doses. Since suboxone is in the same maintenance category why is there no small dose available? I wish Dr. Junig could provide an answer. Something I recently found out. There are doctors that have access to generic buprenorpine in low doses. It is not likely that any doctors are gong to prescribe the new generic buprenorphine 2 mgs that are now available because of the problem of IV use. Some doctors though are detoxing using smaller doses of the bup that is available now. From what I understand the doses are in the mcg range. ie below 1 mg. I am going to a doctor that is one of the first to concentrate on pulling people off of Suboxone. Needless to say- he is being scared by the company because he is forced to use generic, since Suboxone (but+nor) is only available as low as 2mg. It may be a ray of hope for those that want off. ----------------------------------- donh Sat May 08, 2010 2:42 pm ----------------------------------- Gaulois: I recently addressed this topic on another post. I'm guessing that you didn't happen to run across it. Here is part of what I posted as it may help you to understand more about what goes on "behind the scenes" with offering a medication for sale in the United States. ___________________________________________ I wanted to point out is that there actually are formulations of bup made in less than 2 mg tablets. Unfortunately, they are not available in the United States. In other countries you can obtain 0.5 mg tablets as well as patches. So to make the comment that the manufacturer of Suboxone is deliberately not marketing something other than 8mg and 2mg tablets for any reason other than they are not allowed to, is false. It is the FDA that has not authorized anything other than these two strengths. It is as simple as that. No doubt, a 0.5 mg tablet and potentially patches could be extremely useful to patients in the United States. It does suck that we have to become our own chemist to "cook up" smaller dominations of bup in order to taper. This is a problem. However, the blame is not with the drug companies - it's with the FDA. Now, I guess one could argue that the drug company could petition the FDA for a change. I won't argue that could be done. But I'm very willing to bet if the FDA would allow it, we'd see 0.5 mg Bup available in the United States rather quickly. ___________________________________________ I hope that helps. I also understand that you were not blaming the drug company. My references to that were related to the original poster that I responded to, who somehow seemed to think that the drug companies were refusing to provide taper-friendly doses in order to keep patients "hooked" on bup. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sat May 08, 2010 3:00 pm anamaria! great post ----------------------------------- Anamarie!!!!- that is a great idea! I had all sorts of ideas as to how to get small doses transfered onto something that can still be placed under you tongue and disolve! I had this crazy idea with tooth paste. Get this- it is totally stupid next to your filter idea. Take a 2mg tab, crush it completely and get a uniform powder. Divide it into 10 small piles so that you have 1/10 of a 2mg tab, or .2mg or 200 mcg? Now Im getting confused (I agree w/ Joe the Plumber this is BS to have to do this on your own). Anyway- take the little pile of 1/10 of 2mg. Now here is the weird idea. Toothpaste has a fair amount of H20 in it. So blend a bit of tooth past w/the .2mg pile. then let it dry a bit. Once the tooth past dries it can be sort of molded. You can sort of fabricate your own pill. Sounds crazy. Tell me what you all think. Ana Marie and those that have gotten down to the .1 mg level or 100mg level- is there a ray of hope. Man, I have been- I am not going to go into detail, but I have been extremely hopeless and not wanting to go on this way. That is why I came to this site because I was told there were people who had figured out ways of tapering. I am at around 3mg. I think I can get down to 2 within a couple of weeks. I do not care how long it takes to taper. From what I understand, it was not too harsh. The PAWS were not too bad? ----------------------------------- gaulois Sat May 08, 2010 3:55 pm Response Donh ----------------------------------- To Quote the earlier post: "I wanted to point out is that there actually are formulations of bup made in less than 2 mg tablets. Unfortunately, they are not available in the United States. In other countries you can obtain 0.5 mg tablets as well as patches. So to make the comment that the manufacturer of Suboxone is deliberately not marketing something other than 8mg and 2mg tablets for any reason other than they are not allowed to, is false. It is the FDA that has not authorized anything other than these two strengths. It is as simple as that. No doubt, a 0.5 mg tablet and potentially patches could be extremely useful to patients in the United States. It does suck that we have to become our own chemist to "cook up" smaller dominations of bup in order to taper. This is a problem. However, the blame is not with the drug companies - it's with the FDA. Now, I guess one could argue that the drug company could petition the FDA for a change. I won't argue that could be done. But I'm very willing to bet if the FDA would allow it, we'd see 0.5 mg Bup available in the United States rather quickly. " Figured out how to respond. The Government- if you go and read the FDA and DEA requirements- require naloxone to be added to any formulation for Opiate Dependance Treatment Purposes. This is because Buprenorphine is soluble and easily injected. Having said that- I remember that one doctor was considering prescribing Subutex for a friend that seemed to have headaches from the naloxone in Suboxone.... So the laws regarding the prescribing of Subutex- they are actually vague because there is a lot of marketing invloved. Bup has been around forever and is even generic from what I understand. How about that being a slap in the face- those of us not having access to insurance having paid the big bucks for "brand" 2mg suboxone instead of generic subutex. But that is hypothetical. Do you remember being Induced? I was induced on Subutex 2mg tabs. I started at 6mg. Subutex exists in the US so I have no idea where you got the idea that Buprenorphine by itself is not available in the US. ???? Its called Subutex 2mg. If it is available in 2mg- it is available in the smaller doses. I have never known of a compound ie the active ingredient of a medicine not being available in smaller doses in the US - JUST because they are smaller doses. (counterintuitive- it would be the larger doses if anything) If you know of any examples where FDA does not allow a lower dose of a med to be available in the US, while allowing the higher dose of the same med... please tell me, because you have really piqued my interest. Perhaps Dr. Junig knows. Be that as it may, as I said- as an Opiate Dependance Treatment Med- like Methadone- in order for it to be prescribed for this exact purpose it is supposed to be prescribed as the naloxone combined substance/medication: Suboxone. But now that you mention it- I am going to check out and see if it is actually illegal for a doctor to prescribe the 2mg Subutex instead of Suboxone. I do not think it is come to think of it- the doctors are just hesitant because of the IV risk. I think pregnant women or people with Liver problems are allowed to be on Bup without naloxone because naloxone has its own properties and side effects (even at low doses)and has been shown to cause liver damage. So, I will get back on what the guidlines are. Now, if it is available, and not required to be prescribed as the Naloxone combined substance- Suboxone- then that would really raise even more red flags. If that is the case... why has this not been told to patients? Thanks for the info- now I am motivated to see which formulations are available, what the guidelines are with regard to prescribing. Generic availability of Suboxone. ----------------------------------- donh Sat May 08, 2010 4:22 pm ----------------------------------- Physicians can and do prescribe generic subutex (without narcan) everyday in the United States. There is no requirement to prescribe Suboxone. It is up to individual physicians. In fact, there have been posts on this site discussing how some docs are willing to prescribe generic subutex and others are not. This has everything to do with being able to inject bup when narcan is not part of the formulation. Trust me on this. There is no law prohibiting docs from prescribing generic bup without narcan in it - NONE. Now for this comment: "If it is available in 2mg- it is available in the smaller doses." Okay, you go and find it (in the United States). Certainly in liquid form a medical provider can inject whatever amount he or she wishes to. However, in tablet form, it is not available in the United States under 2 mg. You can call any pharmacy anywhere in the USA and you will not find it - nor can they order it. The comment "If it is available in 2mg- it is available in the smaller doses." is 100% false - unless you go outside of the USA. Good luck with that toothpaste idea. I think I’ll stick with the liquid taper method when the time comes for me to drop below 2 mg. ----------------------------------- ene579 Sat May 08, 2010 6:32 pm ----------------------------------- Hey...don't have a lot of time to respond right now (getting ready to go out with that guy i married 6 years ago today....what was I thinking??? :wink: ..kidding...I love him...most of the time). But, I did want to add to what donh said about the generic subutex in the US. gaulois stated: "It is not likely that any doctors are gong to prescribe the new generic buprenorphine 2 mgs that are now available because of the problem of IV use." and "The Government- if you go and read the FDA and DEA requirements- require naloxone to be added to any formulation for Opiate Dependance Treatment Purposes. This is because Buprenorphine is soluble and easily injected. Having said that- I remember that one doctor was considering prescribing Subutex for a friend that seemed to have headaches from the naloxone in Suboxone.... So the laws regarding the prescribing of Subutex- they are actually vague because there is a lot of marketing invloved. Bup has been around forever and is even generic from what I understand. How about that being a slap in the face- those of us not having access to insurance having paid the big bucks for "brand" 2mg suboxone instead of generic subutex. But that is hypothetical. " I am prescribed 2mg generic Subutex (buprenorphine) and have been for about 2 months....I switched for cost reasons. It has been available for months in the US, although it is up to the doctor to decide when and if to prescribe it (as donh pointed out). So, rest assured, it is legal (at least I hope so.... :) ) Also, I do know that the patent on suboxone ran out in October (the US patent...not the European patent....I think that continues for several more years), and that Reckitt-Benckiser has stated that they will not be develping a generic. LONDON (Dow Jones)--Reckitt Benckiser PLC (RB.LN) has no plans to launch its own generic Suboxone product when its exclusive rights to the heroin-dependance treatment expire in October, the group's chief executive said Wednesday. The household cleaning and personal care products maker has exclusivity for Suboxone in the U.S. until the end of September and in Europe until 2016. Analysts have speculated that Reckitt could be planning to launch its own generic product in the U.S. to offset the impact of the loss. "I normally wouldn't comment on this but no we're not," said CEO Bart Becht on a conference call with reporters. He said the company was looking for other ways to offset the loss of exclusivity in the U.S. Up to 80% of the revenues and profits of the company's pharmaceuticals division might be lost to generic competition in 2010, with the possibility of further erosion thereafter, he said. He added that the pharmaceutical business was a relatively small part of the business. Suboxone posted net revenue of GBP219 million in the six months to June 30 and adjusted operating profit of GBP132 million. Suboxone is a prescription drug used to treat heroin dependence. -By Michael Carolan, Dow Jones Newswires; 44-20-7842-9278; michael.carolan@dowjones.com I don't know if this is still true or if another company has bought the rights to develop the generic at this time. I have also heard (and I think it was somewhere on the forum somewhere....can't remember where) that there is a company trying to make the generic formula, but that they are having problems with the combination of nalaxone and bupe...they can't get it close enough to the brand name drug so that the FDA will approve it. Again, that is not a quote, just something I read somewhere. I do think, in general, that drug companies are lying, cheating, greedy bastards (personal commentary) that are not above f...ing over people to turn a profit. Having said that.....I really think that this is an instance where it is just a matter of time before generic Suboxone and varying doses are approved. Honestly, there is a giant profit for whatever drug company can develop the generic Suboxone first, so I would think they are working hard on it as we speak. It may be a long time though....the FDA is not exactly known for its speed. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sat May 08, 2010 6:50 pm Reply, availability, low dose bupe, generic bupe, ethics ----------------------------------- Donh- Yes, that is what I thought!!! And you are right- smaller formulations aside from injectable are not available in the US. But sure enought bupe can be prescribed!! As (I forgot her name) said- there are some docs going out on a limb. Why is it not more common for patients that have shown that they are serious in recovery, get piss tested etc? Otherwise Instead of reducing my suspicion, this has radically increased it. Below at the end of the Post- you will find a Bupe prescription from overseas. One of the many pill formulations of .2mg (200mcg) Bupe available in Europe, and ...the rest of the world etc. This is crazy! So- having gotten involved in a discussion on the matter- As most of you know, my experience w/ Sub has not been all that good. At this point I have almost lost hope. However Anamarie and Schoedinger "Is the cat dead or alive" (what are the matrix mechanic probabilites involved w/bupe abstinance?) They have given me hope with their creative taper methods. Not to mention- I have never seen someone refer to Schroedinger's Cat paradox- on a drug site no less... but how appropriate when you think of it. That really is great. I should have called myself De Broglie instead of Gaulois. I also have a lot more hope because in getting in this discussion, and researching on the net... I discovered of the existance of low dose bupe availablitly on the Internet. Not even that expensive. At this point do you think I care about getting busted? Be a bit ludicrous with a bottle of 8s in my hand and being taken down clutching a box of .2s.. by the Postal Police. The degree of hopelessness- my lack of zest for anything in life, my feeling of absolute hoplessness because I know I cannot deal with another Jump from 1 or 2mg of Sub... just cannot even think about going through that and failing again. And having to take this med the rest of my life and live in this state of - no feelings.. none really. That is why I asked about these tapering methods Low Dose Bupe - there is no excuse as to why the company should not have included a spectrum formulations combined with naloxone, including a tapering schedule series of formulations. Believe me the FDA and DEA would have said- "you want to market 2 other lower doses- no problem". I WORKED WITH THEM! Do you think that they would have said "uh...no lower doses of suboxone are dangerous". No BS- It was not in the interest of the company. Be Logical. RE: "/b] Don- I did not make myself very clear, I was being a bit facetious. It is a bit Axxxhoxxxish on my behalf. I know that low dose bupe is not available- I already knew that- what I meant is that there is no other instances that I know of where a company is told that a lower formulation would be prohibited. ie prohibiting a country from marketing smaller doses, while it is ok with higher doses (controlled substances). And that is the whole point of this- Rickettes had no intention of marketing lower doses. Why would they want to pay to send a work force to undertake a huge marketing project for lower doses of a med in order to wean people off of their block buster patent med and reduce the amount of sales? Imagine the company sending out a new wave of reps to the same old Suboxone Docs, informing them that we have the lower doses available for people that want to wean off-because it turns out that coming off of suboxone (long term use) at 2mgs is psychologically hard (cruel) on the patient.. " we need you to petition the Government on behalf of patients rights". Maybe someone might be interested in this simple request- provide patients with a taper schedule of doses. Is that a lot to ask. Otherwise, I do not think I would have found all of the other questionable practices with the company. So, for some reason people think that the marketing behind Suboxone is anything different from that of other companies and their marketing... .that this company is a philanthropical enterprise, not motivated both by profit. Ie- coming out with a very good med that will help people, but marketing it in such a way that they are a assured a devoted patient base. Marketing techinique? Not provide and "exit strategy", knowing full well the potency of the substance. There is no market initiative at this point for petioning for other formulations. It is far more profitable to simply leave things the way they are- increasing the amount of people on sub, not providing those that want to get off with a reasonable taper- and pump it until they loose the Patent. It is the opposite: They have allowed an increase in the number of Sub patients a doctor can have since 2006. There is no push that I know of as to providing a tapering plan for those that want off of this medicine. There is a push to increase clients. Ask me for proof. Once they loose the Patent on Buprenorphine/Naloxone ie " Suboxone trademark"- you can be sure that the smaller doses will be available. Who knows- maybe they will take advantage of that market, and create some special formulation that requires us, again, to use a "Suboxone" brand name to taper. "Suboxone SR", "Suboxone Patch", Suboxone 100mcg tab" Just look at the new generic availability- 2,8mg Bupe is available generic. Doctors are being frightened into not prescribing it Does that make sense? You cannot OD on Bupe! Methadone is given to "good behavior" ex addicts in "take homes". That would be like Methadone clinics refusing patients to get "take homes". No difference. As you said DonH- Drs do prescribe Subutex. I put that out there to prove my point. (I wish Dr. Junig would clairify some of this). Here is a challenge if you think that Drs are not either 1) being intimidated not to prescribe gen bupe or 2) the Marketing is such that...lets say it is in the good Drs best interest to only prescribe brand name Suboxone- even to committed recovering addicts. Why do good behavior ex junkies at Meth clinics get take homes (of a deadly OD substance)- Methadone, and we Suboxone Patients that have shown to be serious are not offered the same as in being able to be prescribed generic Bupe so we can save quite a bit of money. Its all in the marketing- Yes the FDA also does its job and causes a lot of pain in the ass for pharm co's as well, but there are many cases where the regulations create a marketable situation for a company- and this appears to be a prime case as you have so well illustrated by DonH providing us with all the info on Bupe being available in harmless micro doses in tab form everywhere in the world .....except the US......- which is where Suboxone sales have skyrocketed. As I said, I own pharmaceutical stocks. Yes, they help and provide life saving services. Brokerage firms also can help investors make the right choice, but they can also indulge in less than ethical practices...(Goldman Sachs). There is not doubt that in many circumstances Suboxone is a good medicine. Life Saving. Yes even those that criticize it do not hesitate to say that it is a miracle drug when detoxing Heroin/OC/ SAOpiate addicts. (a 4-5 day Sub Taper) It is, arguably, a better alternative to Methadone Maintenance. But look carefully at these facts: Do not fool yourself 1. It is an Opiate (even if it is partial agonist)- a powerful opiate 2. It is an Opiate Maintenance Med just like Methadone. Your CNS is flooded with large quantities of agonist and partial antagonist opiate. Your brain only knows the difference in the effect (no high, ceiling effect), otherwise your opiate receptors are being lit up just like you are taking a potent opiate for however long you are on it. In some cases that is a better alternative than dying on the street. In others, the thought of a powerful drug circulating through their system for the rest of their lives is a bit disconcerting to say the least. 3. Your body gets all the undesirable effects that it would from any opiate- Gastrointestinal, Libido, Hormonal Changes, numbing of feelings, in older men difficulties with urination. 4. The marketing has been done in such a way that prescribing has not been properly supervised ex. Getting my Suboxone from a pediatrician that took an 8hr class? A Pediatrician? I smell a fish as far as unethical marketing to any doctor that wants to enter into the "addiction treatment" scene- even though they are a pediatrician.. WTF? Do you know what another dried up burned out 70+ year old Psychiatrist told me as she was strutting around in a leather skirt and fishnet stockings and creepy masquera? "Hey I dont make as much as I used to but it beats working with Crazy People". Yes, she was being straight forward. 5. Lastly- there is not way to taper without reverting to classroom chemistry. Or, if you are lucky like me- being able to spend about 3 months in France and going from .2mg pills cut in halves then quarters to putting on transdermal pathces, whatever seems the best detox method. IT IS CRUEL pure and simple that they have not provided an option other than jumping at 2 MG and telling patients that the withdrawal is a protracted miserable - according to Wikepedia "6-12 months of post acute withdrawal" (look under Buprenorphine- wikepedia has a nice review" CRUEL. So am I angry. Yes. I am frankly. I am grateful that angie and schroedinger (despite them thinking that I am an axxxxhxxxl) have provided me with a "how to do it guide" and what to expect. This SITE HAS GIVEN ME HOPE.. So I am not angry at anyone here. ZONOR- BUPRENORPHINE HYDROCHLORIDE. Zonor Brand Names: Zonor, Suboxone, Subutex, Tidigesic Generic name: Buprenorphine Manufacturer: Pharmatec Each Zonor tablet contains: Buprenorphine Hydrochloride USP 0.216 mg, equivalent to Buprenorphine base; 0.200 mg. How does Zonor/Tidigesic work? Zonor sublingual tablets contain the active ingredient buprenorphine, which is a type of medicine called an opioid. Opioids are painkillers such as codeine, morphine and diamorphine (heroin) that work by mimicking the action of naturally occurring pain-reducing chemicals called endorphins. Endorphins are found in the brain and spinal cord and reduce pain by combining with opioid receptors. However, opioids also act in the brain to cause feelings of euphoria and hallucinations. They can be addictive and people taking them long-term can become dependent on them. Buprenorphine is an opioid that is used to wean people off their addiction to stronger opioids such as morphine, diamorphine (heroin) and methadone. It is prescribed as a substitute for such drugs. By acting on the same opioid receptors as other opioids, buprenorphine prevents the physical withdrawal symptoms that occur when these drugs are stopped. This prevents physical cravings. Over time, the dose of buprenorhpine is gradually reduced until it can be stopped completely. Buprenorphine is only suitable as an opioid substitute in people who are moderately dependent on other opioids. This is because in addition to stimulating opioid receptors, buprenorphine also blocks them. In people who are dependent on high doses of opioids, this can cause withdrawal symptoms when the buprenorphine is started. For this reason, in people highly addicted to opioids, the daily opioid dose should be reduced gradually before therapy with buprenorphine is started. For people taking methadone, the methadone dose should be reduced before this medicine is started. However, buprenorphine may still cause symptoms of withdrawal in people dependent upon methadone. For drug addicts who have not undergone withdrawal, the first dose of this medicine should be taken at least 4 hours after the last use of the opioid, or when the first signs of craving appear. If it is taken earlier than this it can actually cause withdrawal symptoms. Buprenorphine substitution therapy for opioid addiction must be used in combination with other medical, social and psychological treatment. The Zonor sublingual tablets should be allowed to dissolve underneath the tongue. This allows the buprenorphine to be absorbed into the bloodstream through the rich supply of blood vessels found in this area. The tablets dissolve in about five to ten minutes. They should not be chewed or swallowed, as this would make them less effective. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sat May 08, 2010 7:08 pm TAPERING SCHEDULE ----------------------------------- Having spent a great deal of my day, making a point that we do not seem to have any options, aside from high school chemistry, to create low dose formulatins of bupe, I have a request for the Owner of this Site. Dr Junig, you seem to be a very genuine person, concerned with the well being of his patients and friends on this site, and I do not say that in any sort of sarcastic way. I understand that your hands are tied. Since you prescribe Suboxone, and surely have patients that want to get off, can you please share with us the following: Your Medical Advice as to how to taper beyond the high dose 2 mg tabs. How to prepare low dose suboxone tabs, or doses so that a proper weaning, that would bring the patient (especially older patients such as myself, 51 yrs old) down gradually and comfortably to a reasonable degree (obviously not pain free). Can you propose a Taper based on what the company has provided you with? I think as a Doctor who has willingly taken the forefront of Suboxone treatment it would be nice to hear what you have to say on the matter. I am sure that all those that are devoted to living free of suboxone would greatly appreciate the advice of an M.D. Gaulois. ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sat May 08, 2010 8:23 pm ----------------------------------- Just FYI, Dr. Junig already addressed this issue on his blog, which is where I got the idea to mix a liquid solution to taper. He suggested decreasing your dose by 10% each month (once you get below 1-2 mgs). It honestly is not difficult to make the liquid solution, I would hardly even consider it high-school-chemistry-level hard. It's just a matter of calculating the proportion of medication to water in order to get the dose you want, and then mixing. You don't have to heat anything or have anything other than water to make up the solution. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sun May 09, 2010 6:30 am liquified method/MD advice ----------------------------------- Thanks Don- could you please direct me to where he did post about this? ie where in this whole blog etc ? I looked but could not find where he directly discusses the issue. It has nothing to do with being hard or complicated. My background is in Biology and I did quite a bit of Chemistry and and research involving biochemistry. Making solutions is probably the easiest thing to do, as long as you begin with a known quantity of a know substance (what they call standards when calibrating detection machines). I want the opinion of an MD regarding this or any other tapering method. He seems to know a awful lot about Bupe, and its potency and how this affects a taper. Anyway, if he has talked about it, please if you could give me the link to that post it would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------- gaulois Sun May 09, 2010 7:01 am response Donh ----------------------------------- DonH- Why do you think that this company is any different from any other company? THE FDA HAS NOT BEEN approached on the matter. The company has not asked for approval. The FDA only approves applications! So ask yourself why the company did not bother to do this from the very start???? There is solid evidence that the company did not bring up the issue of it being necessary to allow smaller doses to be available. No, I have told you that I work (used to ) along side FDA and DEA. Because of the substance being the same molecular substance- there is no problem in the FDA approving a medication of this sort. Until Bupe was used in the high dose form for Opiate Dependency- Bupe was unheard of. There is no market for it because it is one of the painkillers used in Europe that is not as dangerous as things like OxyContin. In Europe the pain killer industry does not exist as it does there. There are many many different types of therapies and drugs that are used before someone is put on a powerful opiate. My friend there had breast cancer. She then had reconstructive Surgery. The powerful meds she was only given in small quantities. The medical community does everything in its power not to have powerful opiates used therefore creating another problem. What happened is a combination of the Gov., and then the Gov being easily influence and not even being made aware that it would be - and I paraphrase you: "of course it would be great for us to have the smaller doses available and the patches" I explained to you that my ex wife is a pharmacist in France. Again- I am willing to put myself out and expose myself because I have nothing to lose- if you think I am making this up, I will give you the name of her pharmacy. The reps deal with pharmacies in Europe in a similar way that reps deal with Drs here. Pharmacists do much more than count pills and tell you "where the dog food section is" at CVS. Pharmacies are pharmacies- the idea that pharmacies sell cigarettes, coca cola, alcohol, dog food, instant soup- ...people are stunned when they here this. There are no boundaries. Everything is fuzzy. So when the Rickettes company reps come and follow up on Subutex she has asked why (since she and I are on good terms and I have the girls) not the availability of the low dose painkilling doses in the US. There answer is that there is no market for it. And they are right- there is no market for low dose bupe here FOR PAINKILLING- if you have 80mg OxyContin....80 mgs of a very addictive oppiate bound up in a resin making it XR, or (Contin as in continuous release). However- had they wanted to take the time to market the low dose to Sub docs they would have gotten approval from the FDA. It is not as you say- the other way around. ie The FDA is not obstructing them from marketing low dose bupe in the US. They simply have never applied for it under the properly stated prescription guidelines and treatment. So it is not as simple as you think. Listen- it is not the purpose of this thread to argue the pros and cons. Although I think that this is a bit strange that it would not be - at least a subject on the site somewhere. If you would like, I will provide you with solid evidence that the company has no interest in getting the FDA to allow low dose bupe to be sold in the US. You have to ask yourself why though. Why is low dose codeine allowed? Low dose Morphine? etc? Aside from all this, I appreciate the input from the others about micro dosing ----------------------------------- gaulois Sun May 09, 2010 11:16 am Dr Junig and how he adressed this issue ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter- Please do not get me wrong- I am glad that you provided us with the log of your experience. How long have you been off of Suboxone? I have been a bit harsh with the Good Doctor, but he has decided to put himself in the forefront of the Suboxone issue. I will admit though- he is compassionate with regards to understanding that Suboxone is not an easy med to stop. Ok, So you mentioned to me: Just FYI, Dr. Junig already addressed this issue on his blog, which is where I got the idea to mix a liquid solution to taper. He suggested decreasing your dose by 10% each month (once you get below 1-2 mgs). So I looked to see what I could find and this was it: It is your own blog.... I got the impression from your FYI "the doc has addressed this issue" that it was a bit more than the following: A while back, Dr. Junig brought up (on his blog) one of the problems with tapering off Suboxone - the fact that you can't get pills in low enough doses to taper comfortably. He suggested a way around this problem: dissolve the Suboxone pills in a small amount of water so that you can measure out smaller doses and taper in smaller increments. A while back, Dr. Junig brought up (on his blog) one of the problems with tapering off Suboxone - the fact that you can't get pills in low enough doses to taper comfortably. He suggested a way around this problem: dissolve the Suboxone pills in a small amount of water so that you can measure out smaller doses and taper in smaller increments. Since I'd been "stuck" at about 1mg of Sub/per day for a while, and every time I tried to start skipping days between doses I got sick, I thought I'd give it at try. This is what I did: I crushed an 8mg pill and dissolved it in 10 ml of water, so every 1ml of water would contain .8 mg (800mcg) of Suboxone. This was a reduction of .2mgs (200mcg) of Suboxone from the dose I was taking at the time. I used an oral syringe that meaured in mls (available at pharmacies, used for measuring kid's cough syrup, etc.) to dose myself with a half a ml in the morning and half a ml at night. I know Dr. J is big on the one dose per day thing, but my doctor ok'd the 2 times a day because I have chronic pain issues and it works better for me that way. I keep the solution in an empty pill bottle in the fridge so it doesn't get funky. I copied your post just to give Dr. Junig's response some context. This is what he had to contribute to the discussion on liquified tapering: I haven't ever used the technique-- only read about it-- so I can't totally vouch for it. Thanks for trying it out in a 'public' way-- I wish you the best with your efforts! Jeffrey T Junig MD PhD This seems a bit contradictory since you said in the post that I copied above that: "He suggested a way around this problem: dissolve the Suboxone pills in a small amount of water so that you can measure out smaller doses and taper in smaller increments." So what is it? Does the doctor recommend this tapering method or not. Can he vouch for it or not? It is very clear that he cannot make any sort of recommendation. In fact he cannot even vouch for it. Why? Simply CYA. Obviously a Dr. is not going to vouch for a High School Chemistry project where you make up varying solutions of a known substance- in order to get a "medically supervised taper and dosing schedule". Do you see the problem? No, the Gov. is not the problem. They will gladly approve low dose bupe. It is simply not a profitable move for the company to apply for the lower dosage approval, then be forced to market this to doctors so that they can offer the patients with an exit strategy. In addition to this, it would be immediately available for generic. So why are they going to bother to apply for, then market a med that is going to contribute to the company loosing money? Profit motive 101. Do you think that in any other pharmaceutical situation that one would have to resort to acting like an alchemist in order to make ones own doses of a medicine?? If you know of any other I would like to know. The reason that it comes so naturally for us to do such a thing is that we are experts at doing this kind of stuff. We are junkies for chrissakes. We know about cutting and crushing OxyContin. Cutting dope. Cooking and mixing dope. We are naturals for making up a "liquified dosing schedule" on our own. Since we are addicts do you think it is proper for a company to make a situation such that an addict has to revert to his old ways of mixing and cutting and doing all this "dope behavior" in order to provide ourselves with smaller doses???? God I am getting pissed off about the thought of this and that I am even trying to show the obvious: That this is not at all a normal medical approach to any sort of medical and standard operating proceedure. This is...weird. The best word that I can come up with. Just plain bizarre. In looking through your thread I came across this post: You know for me...I am now 2 weeks into it, the main problems I have are lack of sleep and feeling kind of depressed. I don't know if it's just because of quitting sub, I have a very grueling job which I don't really find much personal satisfaction at all and I'm just so overworked and my clients are always so unappreciative despite how hard I may work for them. I guess I am fortunate though to have a good job and make good money at 24 in this economy. I feel like I should be much happier though because I quit suboxone and I have a wonderful and beautiful girlfriend and all that good stuff but I feel a little bit empty and I don't sleep so well. Maybe it's just a harder night tonite...I should really look at going to an NA meeting, maybe that would give me some extra support. I just don't like where my head is at and I feel like I may act a little bit irrationally with my girlfriend. I dunno it's worth it though and I guess it's like breaking up with a girl...a few months down the road I will look back and forget all of this for this too shall pass. I think the liquid taper method is truly the best way and I was having alot of trouble seeing a light at the end of the tunnel before this. I think it takes a little bit of will on your part because you need to really stick to your program but as long as you are making progress..you are heading in the right direction. Good luck to all of you, if you really want it--it's something you too can achieve. Just look at us and don't focus solely on the negative reports. It takes some work and patience and perserverance on your part, but you can do it. Thanks for all the information, it's really nice to see a doctor is actually compassionate about this. I was roped in by my doctor who seemed so compassionate but then I found out he's very cold and dismissive. I truly don't understand how there has not yet been a class action lawsuit regarding the way patients are perhaps mis informed about suboxone and how doctor's fail to recognize the seriousness of the withdrawal and addiction to suboxone. I'm rambling, anyways I feel better. I should really try to find a new hobby to fill my time--I think work has just been dragging me down lately and I haven't been as able to deal with the extreme stress as normal. Maybe I will get back to writing more. My knee is still a little messed up from a recent injury so I can't play basketball or take my dog running unfortunately, that would make a big difference! ----------------------------------- gaulois Sun May 09, 2010 11:27 am Joe the plumber expresses this best ----------------------------------- Joe- thank you for your posts. I borrowed this to emphasize my own dismay at the situation that we are in. Maybe an hour or so after i'm so impressed with you folks for your innovations and your humanity, i am P***ED OFF that you had to figure it out for yourselves. I mean, it's really great that you did, but i'm reading around the interwebs and coming on all sorts of people in all sorts of misery because the medical/pharmaceutical establishment has NO such options and people are jumping from 2mg cause that's the smallest you can get. But OTOH if we didn't do for ourselves i suppose we'd be at the mercy of doctors who might think we should stick to a program that might not be right for us, individually. NTM, some folks have expressed fear, for God's sake, that their doctors might find out they've been doing something unauthorized. Sad... Ok got that out my system. Questions, if i may: *Where do i get a syringe for such micro-doses? I've got an oral syringe here but it's marked in... um... 1/5 milliliter gradations. So it won't work when, (see i said when), i get down to .25mg. *I suck at math. It's ways off from here, but but how i'm gonna reckon the solution at different levels on the taper? I think maybe this warrants a spreadsheet or formula or something, that people can reference for the tapering process. I'm not inclined to ask my doctor for anything less than my 8mg tablets, because i'd prefer to hoard them in case anything goes wrong and so i have all the time i might need. But that means i can accurately break the tablets, at very best, into quarters and even then at these dosages i can imagine it getting tricky. Am i gonna need, at some point, to ask for 2mg tablets? *What exactly is the process for dissolving the tablets and getting the solution into the syringe? For instance, my oral syringe has a nipple on the business end which appears to hold almost a milliliter of liquid. I was just now experimenting with it and found it difficult to load it with say, 4ml of water without filling that nipple, thus, having to squirt some out in order to get air where the water is. When i get to doing this with Sub i obviously don't want to be squirting any of it out. Maybe i'm just stupid right now. *What's the (rough) consensus as to how long the taper should be? Annmarie, for instance, was bummed that it would be "much longer" than a month for her to get to .25mg from her current .5mg. I'm told that it will take me ~6 months to get my new knee working properly, and i was sorta hoping to use that same timetable to get off the Sub. Is this realistic, at common rates of reduction? Apologies if the answers to these questions are scattered about. And i obviously have no use for the answers right now because all i want in the whole world is back on to my Sub at whatever dose works. But i AM gonna do this, and it would be nice to have the whole process and all the maths and cigarette filter tricks etc. articulated in one place for those who might be stumbling around the interweb looking for help, now. I might could make my own answers if my brain worked, but meanwhile just seeing people actually doing these things is so very heartening i could almost cry. Thanks again, - joe ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sun May 09, 2010 1:43 pm ----------------------------------- gaulois - I just can't shake the feeling that you are spoiling for a fight or at least trying to bait one of us into a debate. The fact of the matter is that NONE of us know the rationale behind the absence of lower-dose tablets of suboxone or subutex for tapering. My opinion is that the vast majority of people who take these drugs don't have such a hard time tapering off of them. I really do believe that the people who do have a hard time of it are simply a very vocal minority. And that is all I have to say about that. Here is the relevant quote from Dr. Junig's blog - The Suboxone Talk Zone - which is where I got the idea for the liquid taper. Here on the forum he simply said he couldn't vouch for the method because he didn't know anyone who had tried it yet. But as you can see from this quote (which is easily found by googling Suboxone Talk Zone and Taper) he was the one who proposed the idea: OK.. Micrograms. This simply refers to the new info that was sent to me by a nice gentleman who I cannot mention by name… and a topic that I referred to a couple posts ago. I mentioned that in order to taper off Suboxone, you must think in terms of micrograms, not milligrams. When you take an 8 mg pill of Suboxone, you are taking a supra-maximal dose of buprenorphine– a dose that is off the scale. The ‘ceiling’ is way up high, far above the doses that are used clinically for treatment of acute pain. As I have said, 24 mg, or 4 mg, of Suboxone are both as potent as 30 mg of methadone! So your taper off Suboxone doesn’t really start until you get below 2000 micrograms per day– or 2 mg, which is a quarter of a pill. To do a proper taper, you want to think in terms of tapering down from 2000 micrograms to zero, in small steps. I had an idea of how to do this at about the same time I received the message from the nameless contributor who had done his own tapering studies. He did what I had finally figured out; take an 8 mg tablet and dissolve it in a small amount of liquid– water would probably be fine. You want a small enough volume so that when you put it in your mouth it is concentrated enough to cause absorption of the drug through mucous membranes, but a large enough volume so that it can be measured accurately. I suggest using a vial that childrens’ medicine comes in– one with a measured eye dropper. calculate out the concentration of buprenorphine, and then use the dropper to take a measured dose of the liquid each day. At some point– if you start getting withdrawal by the end of the 24 hour period– you might want to change to dosing every 12 hours (cut each dose in half, of course). I recommend making a reduction in dose every one or two weeks– if you are still feeling sick from the step a week earlier, don’t make another change until you feel better. In general, each drop in dose should be a drop of about 10%. Be sure to keep the mixture refrigerated, and toss it if it develops a foul odor! If you taper very slowly, you should be able to avoid the vast majority of the withdrawal. It will take a long time though, so be prepared to keep at it for months. If, on the other hand, you need clean urine very quickly…. you have little choice but to simply stop, and tell everyone that you have mono again. (gee… seems like you are ALWAYS getting mono!), I hope you agree that this ends the debate about whether he actually recommended this idea or not. And to answer your last question, I have been off Suboxone for 9 months and I'm doing great, thanks for asking. Here is the link to the quoted blog post: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/?p=1297 ----------------------------------- ene579 Sun May 09, 2010 7:00 pm ----------------------------------- Gaulois, I don’t want this post to further the debate, but I do want to comment on a few statements, then I will get into the real point of my post. “Once they loose the Patent on Buprenorphine/Naloxone ie " Suboxone trademark"- you can be sure that the smaller doses will be available. Who knows- maybe they will take advantage of that market, and create some special formulation that requires us, again, to use a "Suboxone" brand name to taper. "Suboxone SR", "Suboxone Patch", Suboxone 100mcg tab"” If you will go to my earlier post from yesterday, you will see an article that I copied into the body of the text that states that the patent has already expired (as of Oct. 2009). So, according to your logic, we should see a great number of new, innovative products in the market soon. However, according to that article, R-B doesn’t seem as interested in Suboxone as we would all think….the article says they are not even going to market the generic because they are more focused on the other products they make (household products…like my Veet spray on hair removal). I really think that, if they wanted to keep all us addicts hooked for life to increase their profits, they would definitely be working on manufacturing the generic version of the drug….once that is approved, the brand sales will go WAY down. “Here is a challenge if you think that Drs are not either 1) being intimidated not to prescribe gen bupe or 2) the Marketing is such that...lets say it is in the good Drs best interest to only prescribe brand name Suboxone- even to committed recovering addicts. Why do good behavior ex junkies at Meth clinics get take homes (of a deadly OD substance)- Methadone, and we Suboxone Patients that have shown to be serious are not offered the same as in being able to be prescribed generic Bupe so we can save quite a bit of money.” First off, about the doctors being “scared” by the drug companies…..BS!!!!! I am so SICK and TIRED of the asinine argument. It makes no sense at all. I grew up in a family full of doctors, I worked for doctors in college, I managed medical practices after college….I NEVER saw a doctor intimidated by a drug company. In fact, I usually saw the opposite….doctors who were set in their ways and prescribed the older (less expensive medications) and doctors who would go out of their way to save money for their patients (by writing for generic if medications aren’t covered or substituting their original scripts for something on the insurance formulary). How exactly do drug companies intimidate and scare doctors? In your world, the doctors are evil, the drug companies are evil…..who do you trust? I frankly didn’t even understand the last part of that paragraph. Sub patients ARE allowed large quantities of lake home meds….months at a time….usually pretty early on in treatment….and, again, I and MANY others are on the generic bupe (I don’t have some maverick doctor who is “going out on a limb”). But, and my response above may contradict this, I genuinely am not very concerned about ANY of this….slightly annoyed, but it is ultimately irrelevant. Here is my question for you…..what do you want? What are you trying to accomplish? When I first read you posts, my heart went out to you. You seemed like you were having an unusually bad response to sub, and you wanted taper suggestions. When taper alternatives were suggested, you began to debate drug company ethics. Which is it? Do you want to taper off or do you want to debate? Both are ok, but people need to know, so we know how to help you. You are so focused on blaming the drug companies for your inability to taper off suboxone, but many people on this site and all over have successfully tapered. You insist that the liquid taper method involves some sort of chemistry degree, but it is only mixing water and powder (my nephew can do that when he makes Kool-Aid…he’s 9). I just see all this anger as a diversion…..yes, the situation sucks (and it does), but it is what it is. So, what can we do about it? As an active addict, I wanted to talk about anything other than my problem…and I see some of this in your responses. Honestly, if I were having the problems that you are having from sub, and I came upon a source of information like this site that provided a plan to stop taking sub (along with comments from people who had been successful using it), I would at least TRY IT OUT! You seem so much more interested in the debate than in the solution, and, based on this, I wonder if you really are ready to taper. The other thing is, I went back and read some of your older posts from September, as well as some of your current posts on other topics. From what I understand, you have gone off sub in the past, and have relapsed rather quickly. What has changed? How is this time going to be different? What have you done for relapse prevention? What is your recovery plan after you are off sub? What I am getting at is, are you really afraid of the physical withdrawal (which, I’m sure is a part of it) or are you more worried about what comes after? I came off sub in October (jumped from 1mg), and I relapsed in December. Getting off wasn’t fun (about 5-10 days of flu-like symptoms), but being off opiates was impossible because I hadn’t done the work. I wasn’t ready to live sober. Here is my main concern. I hear a lot of pain in some of your posts…even comments about not caring if you live. What will a relapse do to you in this state of mind? Are you ready to live sober…you know how hard that is. I just want to ask you to spend as much time working on your recovery as you have researching and writing posts about R-B. A friend of mine in NA once told me to evaluate every action as, “Does this move me closer to sobriety or take me further away?”. Please ask yourself what this debate is doing for your long-term recovery and if this is the best use of your energy. Only you know the answer to this. Elizabeth ----------------------------------- setmefree Sun May 09, 2010 9:34 pm Re: Dr Junig and how he adressed this issue ----------------------------------- Great post ene579. You brought up some great points for gaulois to think about. I have to disagree with you, Gaulois about these comments....You said: "Do you think that in any other pharmaceutical situation that one would have to resort to acting like an alchemist in order to make ones own doses of a medicine?? If you know of any other I would like to know. The reason that it comes so naturally for us to do such a thing is that we are experts at doing this kind of stuff. We are junkies for chrissakes. We know about cutting and crushing OxyContin. Cutting dope. Cooking and mixing dope. We are naturals for making up a "liquified dosing schedule" on our own. Since we are addicts do you think it is proper for a company to make a situation such that an addict has to revert to his old ways of mixing and cutting and doing all this "dope behavior" in order to provide ourselves with smaller doses????" "God I am getting pissed off about the thought of this and that I am even trying to show the obvious: That this is not at all a normal medical approach to any sort of medical and standard operating proceedure. This is...weird. The best word that I can come up with. Just plain bizarre." There are in fact many drugs that are not forumulated in the exact dose that is prescribed for a particular patient. There are a variety of circumstances in which a medication must be halved or even quartered to make the correct dose. That is why pharmacies sell pill cutters. There are also liquid formulations of medications sold in multi-dose bottles in which the proper dose must be measured accurately by the patient before it is administered. There are actually injectible meds which must be drawn up accurately and self-administered as well, such as insulin. There are even a few meds in powder form that are not to be reconstituted until right before administration, in which case, the patient must actually mix and dissolve the drug into solution himself before taking the medication. What I'm suggesting is that Suboxone certainly isn't alone in being a drug whose 'standard' doses are 'easy' to use, but whose doses, when deviating from that 'standard', take a little extra time and attention to titrate down. It certainly doesn't take a chemisty degree nor does it take "acting like an alchemist" to figure out how to take a known quantity of drug, turn it into powder form and dissolve it in a little water to make a solution. Measuring isn't a difficult task at all if one has a simple syringe or marked eye dropper. I'm not a math-whiz at all, but I'm thinking I can handle this. Moreover, I'm thinking I can handle this even though I am not an expert at this. I am not a "junkie" who has ever "cut, cooked or mixed dope." Nor do I feel that by taking my legitimately prescribed medication and mixing it with water to achieve an easier way of tapering is "dope behavior." If it even comes to that for me as I finish my taper. So far I've done fine by dividing my 8mg tablets into 4 (relatively) equal pieces and then cutting those pieces into 2, leaving me with a 1mg dose. Now when I am ready to go under 1mg, I may indeed need to move to the liquid method to finish the final stages. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I'm certainly not staying up late and spending hours studying it. It's been done here. Several people were kind enough to share that it worked well....that's good enough for me. Frankly I could care less about who, why, why not......it's the Reckitt....it's the DEA....it's the FDA....it's the doctors.....it's the drug reps.....What does that have to do with me and my goals? Seriously. It's not going to get in the way of my goals. Could there/Should there be an easier way? Most probably so. But it's not here yet. I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about that stuff. I'm instead going to spend my final time on Suboxone making sure I'm stable in my recovery, that I've got a good relapse prevention plan in place, that my support system is in place, that my body and mind and spirit are where they need to be in order for me to have an easy final taper and a soft landing. That's what I'm focusing on. There is no room in there for me to be angry at a drug company, especially the one who put this drug out there that saved me from certain doom. But then again, I've never been one to buy into conspiracy theories anyway! It seems like there is a common thread among opiate addicts. That being that they are really just looking for an easy way out. They're looking for a 'reset' button or a 'rewind' button or maybe even a 'fast forward" button, so that they don't have to experience any degree of hardship or pain or discomfort or aggravation in order to get out of this mess. We've all looked and some of us have tried......but that is not gonna happen, my friends. We just have to do the work, exercise the patience and perseverance and walk through, just walk through, for that is the only way to the other side!! Personally, my prayer is for peace, above all else.....that as I do my final taper over the coming weeks or months, that I will have peace. In knowing that this is where I want to go next, trying life without buprenorphine. Peace although I may experience some level of discomfort along the final taper. Peace in knowing that whatever difficulties may arise, they may be dealt with and they too shall pass. Peace that I will come out on the other side feeling good and feeling free to continue to work on my recovery, only after that, it will no longer include bupe. Gaulois, I hope you are finding what you are looking for. I'm concerned that you're making it way harder than it has to be. Maybe if like me, you could just relax about it a little bit. Find a method that you think might work well for you and then start going for it. Take your time and settle in to your plan and then take a deep breath.....and begin your taper. It really doesn't have to be like approaching the mystery of the ages. They're just orange tablets that break quite easily. I'm not sure how much you're on now, but I just started dropping pretty fast from doses anywhere higher than 4mg/day. Most of us find that we can go from 16mg/day or 12mg/day down to 8mg/day in one step because of the ceiling effect of the drug. I went from 8mg to 4mg with one step.....painless. At that level I had to start slowing it down a bit. Now I'm at ~1.5mg/day and doing pretty good so far. I'm not using the liquid method yet, but I might after I get down to 1mg. We'll see. I have no set-in-stone plan. I'm just taking it as it comes in hopes of being finished this summer. We'll see. All that to say once again, as we all have said......If you want off the drug in the easiest way possible.....just get started. Put a basic plan in place and go for it! We're here to help and support in any way we can. But I think there's been enough of the side tracking off on the drug company conspiracy theories and so forth. Let's just stick to what you want to do, how you want to do it (with the methods we know of) and when you want to do it. Doesn't that make more sense than anything else. This should be 100% about getting you to your goal. So drop other side-talk and let's get you working on your goal! ----------------------------------- donh Sun May 09, 2010 10:30 pm ----------------------------------- Wow gaulois you are one very lucky guy! You just got three great posts providing you with some significant help. Both ene579 and SetMeFree gave you some awesome information and DOQ gave you the tools and information to carry it all out. Now, will you please listen to them? Great advice like this doesn't come along everyday - and for free on top of it. They have all really hit on the necessary information for you. They are all right on target. I won't even try to add to what they have already said - if I even could! So, please - please - please, don't try to argue, debate, fight, justify, twist, turn... Just take to heart what they have said and accept the wonderful gift that they have just given you. It may have been mother's day but it looks like the mothers just handed you the most awesome gift. I truly hope you will make the most of it. ----------------------------------- ginger44 Mon May 10, 2010 9:38 am ----------------------------------- I have been reading since I joined this forum(only a couple days agao) amd I want to thank all of you for the wealth of information you have posted!! I still have much reading to do. I have weaned down to 1 mg doses(just started this morning). Not using the water taper method, yet, but I am sure I will. I have some occasional chills, some fatugue, and sleeplessness(which causes mental fogginess during the day) and my constipation issues have completely been resolved!(what a perk..lol) Some muscle aches and joint pain, but all tolerable. I just want to be off sub as soon as I can(and that may not be very soon) Again. thanks for all who post and share their info so I can take it and make my own decision. ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri May 14, 2010 3:19 pm 4 Weeks Post-Jump ----------------------------------- Hi Kids!! On Monday, it'll be four weeks since I took my last dose. Honestly, by the second week, I had quit counting the days. That's how great and normal I've felt! I'm trying to remember exactly how the WD faded out: It seems like I had a few days of slight depression around Days 10-13, but I think I posted earlier about that. During this time, I was out riding bikes, shopping, working, and going to shows, restaurants, parties, etc. I was in a great mood, smiling and happy. Week 2: No more night sweats, and I didn't have those "odd sneezes" anymore. I was still waking up just before sunrise, but I am not taking anything for sleep, so... Week 3: Still fantastic! Have TONS of energy! No cravings or using dreams. Still waking up very early (5-6am), but I haven't felt this normal in years! Week 4: A few days ago, I started feeling tired. I felt some chills and had some weird sweating on the palms of my hands and feet. The muscles in my legs twitched a couple of times during the day. I also had night sweats one night. Could this be the PAWS?? Anyway, It was very short lived, requiring only a sweater and a few naps. So that's about it. No horror stories, just better and better every day. I wish I knew it was going to be this easy BEFORE I entered detox panic-mode. I spent so much time worrying about how terrible it MIGHT be. I am very grateful that it went so smoothly. Remember: You don't need luck, you just need a slow, low taper. I'll keep posting with my progress. AM BronzeB, Glad to read you are doing just as well!! I can't believe it's been a month! Time flies when you've done an easy detox, huh?? I'll PM you soon so we can catch up. Cat, Great frickin job getting to 1mg!! That was quick! Typically, I only felt 1 or 2 days of WD after each decrease, too. If you time it right, you can use the weekend to go through any WD. I had to slow things down quite a bit when I got under 1mg. Keep chugging along patiently. I promise it will be completely worth it to jump from a tiny dose. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Fri May 14, 2010 6:26 pm You made my day! ----------------------------------- annmarie - Hey there, my friend... it's wonderful to hear that you're doing so well. It really is hard to believe that it's already been a month now without any sub - all that worry for nothing is right. One of my biggest concerns when I was tapering was that I thought I might hit a point where I was unable to level off, but that didn't occur. A couple of times it did take a little longer, although on those few occasions, exercising helped enormously. Looking forward to your PM! Bill ----------------------------------- annmarie Fri May 14, 2010 6:53 pm The Dreaded Exercise... ----------------------------------- Hey Bronze! God, how I miss our neurotic PMs!! :lol: I received an alert that you posted, so I logged in really quickly to respond. You are spot on with the exercise comment. I had read that it helps with the WD but I never felt like doing it. While i was tapering, I never felt bad enough to lie around. I was restless at times, but also tired. Then one day my legs were twitching, and I got really annoyed. I jumped up and started doing some simple exercises (squats with a weight bar). I could only complete 20 or so, and had to lie down afterward. Then an amazing thing happened: the WD disappeared. No more chills or sweats!! From then on, I was a believer. The first few days after I jumped, I went completely hardcore, riding my bike several miles every day, lifting weights, and walking all over the city. It made me feel great, and I slept like a log. I'm thinking that's a big part of why I never had to take sleep meds. I have unfortunately done 30-40 detoxes (rough guess) in my lifetime, and have ALWAYS needed sleep meds. Period. To this day, I am baffled by how easy the Sub detox was from the slow, low taper. The key word here is SLOW. Bronze is correct. Near the end (doses under 1mg or so) the decreasing becomes slower, and the progress occurs in baby steps. But if you want an easy jump, and if you want to bounce back quickly, I do think it is absolutely necessary. AM ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed May 19, 2010 6:14 pm Having PAWS 4 weeks Post Jump ----------------------------------- Hey Everyone!! It's been 5 days or so since I've posted. I'm at 4 weeks and 2 days post-jump. For the past few days I have had some WD or PAWS symptoms. I felt tired for 2 days, needing a nap here and there. Then, my hands and feet would get sweaty for 30 mins to an hour a few times a day. Two nights I had pretty significant nightsweats, waking up super-early and soaked. Gross. There was a day where I felt mentally "weird" and had trouble maintaining any functional pattern of thought. I felt like I wanted to get high on SOMETHING, ANYTHING, but no drug specifically. You know that feeling: crawling the walls...?? During this time I slept pretty well, surprisingly. Today, I feel back to normal again. I am assuming it was PAWS. It was crazy-mild, but having any type of WD just reminds me of drugs and being on Sub, when frankly, I am just ready to move on. So the annoyance factor was the only problem I really had with it. If you keep your day full of activity and your mind occupied (or plan to hit a meeting), it should be a piece of cake. When I jumped from 2 mgs a few years ago, I went through complete hell, and then had very significant WD symptoms (or PAWS?) for 13 1/2 weeks post-jump. This time, I tapered. And there is simply a WORLD of difference!!!! I wish I could adequately explain in words how much milder and easier the tapering method is. On a scale of 1 to 10: My jump from 2mgs? An 11. My taper? Barely a 1. Barely. It was dramatically shorter, and the post-jump bounce-back happens within days--not weeks. It was SSSOOOO worth it!! AM ----------------------------------- setmefree Wed May 19, 2010 8:28 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the update annmarie! I'm sorry you had a tough couple of days, but glad that it was nothing debilitating....just more a nuisance it sounds like. Kind of one of those "what the heck was that about?" type moments, huh? As you said, it passed and you feel better now. You've done great and it's looking like your meticulous work on the taper is paying off all told. I don't expect the final stages of the taper or the final jump to completely without problems, but manageable with a little exercise of the body and mind, so to speak! Seems that's the way you've approached it as well. Good for you. Thanks again for the update.....sure is nice to have others to look to in order to prepare for what may be in store! ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Tue May 25, 2010 6:12 pm ----------------------------------- I just wanted to check in to give an update on how everything was going for me post taper. It's been exactly six weeks since my last dose of Suboxone and so far I don't seem to be experiencing any PAWS. I have continued to workout - a one hour walk everyday and some strength training every other day - and have been maintaining a good diet, so that, coupled with the long slow taper may be why I'm feeling so good. I've been reading some more articles about the effects of exercise on the brain and it's all very encouraging. From what I can gather, it not only helps to stimulate the opiate receptors that have atrophied due to abuse, but it also speeds up the neural rewiring that occurs when we stop abusing drugs. This rewiring actually starts to happen when we begin taking Suboxone in place of our drug of choice. Below are a few snippets I found that I thought might be interest some of you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When one ceases taking opiates, the opiate receptors are going to be less stimulated, but given time, they upregulate. But the short answer is that while opiates will cause some short term changes in neurochemistry, they will not cause any serious long term changes. This is not to say that long-term opiate use doesn't have negative health effects, just that brain damage does not appear to be one of them." "Now, it is possible to rearange the connections between neurons, of course, your brain does it all the time: it's called learning." "Exercise (running) has been shown to increase cell proliferation and neurogenesis (proliferation, migration and differentiation of neurons) in the dentate gyrus of the adult mouse." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought this information was very encouraging because it confirmed what I had already suspected - that we can be much more proactive in our recovery than most people think is possible. Many of us have heard the statistics relating what percentage of individuals succeed in maintaining their sobriety over a given period of time. Depending on the source, it's anywhere from 3 to 10%. I think of it as a throw of the dice, except with every tool in place we can load those dice so that the odds are even greater for our long term recovery. For those interested in using the liquid taper method... I've done the math so you can accurately decrease your dose by whatever amount you would like down to .150mgs per 1ml of water. I hope someone finds this information helpful. 8 milligrams of Suboxone to 8 millileters of water - 1ml = 1mg 8mg/9ml ---- 1ml = .888mg 8mg/10ml --- 1ml = .800mg 8mg/11ml --- 1ml = .727mg 8mg/12ml --- 1ml = .666mg 8mg/13ml --- 1ml = .615mg 8mg/14ml --- 1ml = .571mg 8mg/15ml --- 1ml = .533mg 8mg/16ml --- 1ml = .500mg 8mg/17ml --- 1ml = .470mg 8mg/18ml --- 1ml = .444mg 8mg/19ml --- 1ml = .421mg 8mg/20ml --- 1ml = .400mg 8mg/21ml --- 1ml = .380mg 8mg/22ml --- 1ml = .363mg 8mg/23ml --- 1ml = .347mg 8mg/24ml --- 1ml = .337mg 8mg/25ml --- 1ml = .320mg 8mg/26ml --- 1ml = .307mg 8mg/27ml --- 1ml = .297mg 8mg/28ml --- 1ml = .285mg 8mg/29ml --- 1ml = .275mg 8mg/30ml --- 1ml = .266mg 8mg/31ml --- 1ml = .258mg 8mg/32ml --- 1ml = .253mg 8mg/33ml --- 1ml = .242mg 8mg/34ml --- 1ml = .235mg 8mg/35ml --- 1ml = .228mg 8mg/36ml --- 1ml = .222mg 8mg/37ml --- 1ml = .216mg 8mg/38ml --- 1ml = .210mg 8mg/39ml --- 1ml = .205mg 8mg/40ml --- 1ml = .200mg 8mg/41ml --- 1ml = .195mg 8mg/42ml --- 1ml = .190mg 8mg/43ml --- 1ml = .186mg 8mg/44ml --- 1ml = .181mg 8mg/45ml --- 1ml = .177mg 8mg/46ml --- 1ml = .173mg 8mg/47ml --- 1ml = .170mg 8mg/48ml --- 1ml = .167mg 8mg/49ml --- 1ml = .163mg 8mg/50ml --- 1ml = .160mg 8mg/51ml --- 1ml = .156mg 8mg/52ml --- 1ml = .153mg 8mg/53ml --- 1ml = .150mg 8mg/54ml --- 1ml = .148mg 8mg/55ml --- 1ml = .145mg 8mg/56ml --- 1ml = .142mg 8mg/57ml --- 1ml = .140mg 8mg/58ml --- 1ml = .137mg 8mg/59ml --- 1ml = .135mg 8mg/60ml --- 1ml = .133mg ----------------------------------- ginger44 Wed May 26, 2010 4:52 am ----------------------------------- thanks for that! I am a distance runner and have been for MANY years. I knew that running was good for me in many ways but never truley felt it could actually help aleviate some of the W/Ds while I taper..but it does! I also needed that info for the liquid taper method and appreciate the work you did to post it! Congrats on your sobriety! See you on the running trail! G44 ----------------------------------- smat Wed May 26, 2010 9:39 am ----------------------------------- Hello everyone :) I made my first liquid taper cut yesterday after finally stabilizing (and inducting) on .8mgs of suboxone. I had a very small habit of 22.5mgs of oxycodone a day before starting the suboxone. It took me about 5 days to figure out what my starting point should be. I finally felt normal on .8mgs last Monday and held that dose for a week. I tapered to .72mgs yesterday morning and am starting to feel some symptoms today. Everything I am experiencing so far is very mild compared to my WD on the oxy. I made the mistake of cutting my oxy dose by 50% (45mgs to 22.5mgs) 5 weeks before starting suboxone and the WD I feel now after making a suboxone cut is minimal in comparison. Let's hope it stays that way throughout my taper. :D At hours 23-24 I had some mild GI upset, slight fatigue (heaviness in limbs) and a runny nose. After taking my morning dose (Hours 24-26) I have only mild GI upset and I'm cold. I also have some brain fog, dizziness and a tightness in my head. These "head" symptoms may be from the very warm weather we are having here today and didn't occur until after I dosed. I'm a bit confused because I thought most people went through WD at the 36-48 hour mark but it seems I'm metabolizing quicker. I had 4 great days before I cut so I am confident that I was stable before I started. Anyone else experience early WD's? I didn't think this would happen until tomorrow and I have 2 appointments I need to get to today. I sort of planned on being uncomfortable tomorrow when I had nothing to do LOL! Anyhoo....I have an exercise routine and will get to that in an hour or so. I honestly don't feel like it, I'd much rather just lie around and rest until I absolutely have to do anything, but I know my brain and body can use the boost and the distraction. I'll check in and let you all know how my symptoms subside (hopefully) or increase. I'll tell you this though, this is NOTHING compared to how sick I was after 24 hours post cutting my oxy. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed May 26, 2010 11:48 am dosing adjustments ----------------------------------- Samantha - If you are having some difficulties with a 10%+ decrease you may want to slow things down a bit and cut back by approximately 5% instead. Here's some additional information that you may find useful: 8mg/8.5ml --- 1ml = .941mgs 8mg/9.5ml --- 1ml = .842mgs 8mg/10.5ml -- 1ml = .761mgs 8mg/11.5ml -- 1ml = .695mgs Good luck! Let me know how things work out. Ginger - Glad to be of some help. For me personally, while exercising did help to get me through the daily withdrawals, the biggest benifits seemed to occur over weeks and months. That's great that you're a long distance runner... it should help you a lot with your taper. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention in one of your posts that you ran seventeen miles a few weeks back? I've jogged ten miles on a track on two separate occasions (quite some time ago) and both times I remember I had absolutely nothing left at the end. I give you a lot of credit. I wish you luck with your taper. If I can be of any help at all, please feel free to contact me. Bill ----------------------------------- annmarie Wed May 26, 2010 12:53 pm WD After Decreases ----------------------------------- Hey Smat!. You posted: "I'm a bit confused because I thought most people went through WD at the 36-48 hour mark but it seems I'm metabolizing quicker. I had 4 great days before I cut so I am confident that I was stable before I started. Anyone else experience early WD's? " The answer is YES! I dosed twice a day when I got down to .8mgs, and my WD came on and left much faster than other people reported. Specifically: Decreases from .8 mgs to .6 0 hrs last dose 24-41 hrs WD become noticeable 42-50 hrs WD increase to moderate 51-55 hrs WD peak 56-60 hrs WD decrease rapidly 60 hrs Over Total: 53 hrs Decreases from .6 mgs to .4 0 hrs last dose 17-28 hrs WD start, increase to moderate 28-40 hrs WD very light, feeling better 41-47 hrs WD light breakthrough 48 hrs Over Total: 30 hrs Decreases from .4 mgs to .1 0 hrs last dose 18-30 hrs WD start, light 30-37 hrs WD only chills, feeling better 38 hrs Over Total: 19 hrs My Subjective Definitions: Light WD = A slight feeling, as if you've just realized you forgot to take your dose/or are late taking your dose. A feeling that "something's going on." Sweaty palms of hands, and sweaty feet, occasional headache. Moderate WD = Chills, sometimes yawning or sneezing, a leg twitch here and there. Peak WD = Feverish, tired, sometimes a rapid heartbeat, twice I had to lie down for a few hours, twice my skin felt hot. It seemed the lower I got, the faster the stablization became. I was able to decrease every 2-3 days, but I do recommend taking a break every now and then by staying with one dose for 5 days. The subsequent decreases will be easier if you do. When I jumped (well, more like an uneventful "hop") my worst symptoms happened in the first 24 hours, then I felt better and better everyday. Almost high. I know, weird, right?? Let me say again, that even my worst WD symptoms felt roughly equal to a detox from 10-20mgs of hydrocodone. Very, very mild. Too mild to even take anything. The Brain Fog comes and goes, but gets much better/lighter at lower doses. After I got under .5mgs, I only felt "a little out of it/a little flaky" every now and then. In fact, it made me laugh. I'm not sure why, I just thought it was funny to feel like I had 30 IQ points disappear overnight. It never lasted more than a day each time. The depression gets very light, too. Not really depression, just sort of a blah feeling sometimes, scattered between days of happiness. I am so glad you are tapering. You will be amazed at how much easier it is!! I think it took me 6-7 weeks to go from .8 to .1ish, so just be patient. You are already doing great!! ----------------------------------- Schrodinger's Cat Thu May 27, 2010 12:28 am ----------------------------------- Down to .8 mg now. If I forget to take my dose I feel what Anne describes as moderate withdrawal (yawning, stretching, teary eyes, lethargy etc...) I have never experienced a leg twitch or restless legs from withdrawal, thankfully. Even from severe withdrawal. My symptoms during severe-moderate withdrawal are: diarrhea, muscle pain mostly in the calf muscles, severe dysphoria (the worst part), anxiety, restlessness, sleeplessness and anorexia. The dysphoria being the worst followed by diarrhea. The actual physical pain is the most tolerable. Sorry for the tangent. Everything seems to be going well. This isn't harder or easier than I expected. So far it's been predictable. The liquid method is great! ----------------------------------- ginger44 Thu May 27, 2010 5:43 am ----------------------------------- Bill.. yes..I did do a 17 miler and am training to run the R & R Mari in Chicago on Augusta 1st. I have run several marathons (and other races)while trying to taper (and several while on my DOC) but seem to do alright as far as during and toward the end of my runs..it's getting started that I have trouble with. I dose with sub just before I run. Not sure that's the greatest idea tho bc I am tapering off and hope my brain doesn't trick me into thinking that I NEED it in order to run. If my taper goes well..I will be off when I run the marathon in August. reat reading all the info ppl are sharing! So glad I found you all! G44 ----------------------------------- smat Thu May 27, 2010 9:47 am ----------------------------------- Hello everyone :D I just wanted to update as I am almost at hour 50 during my first cut in the liquid taper. After my post yesterday my D went from mild to moderate w/ increasing nausea, dizziness, muscle twitching, anxiety, brain fog and sleepiness. I forced myself to exercise (some gentle yoga followed by 15 minutes on a NordicTrack ski machine) and I felt better almost immediately. I can only describe my level of WD post exercise as "uncomfortable". I did have some very mild mood changes and slight muscle twitches but the worst of it was over. I slept a full 7 hours and woke up feeling pretty well all things considered. My symptoms today are slight muscle tightness/stiffness, very mild muscle twitches, brain fog and I'm tired. Not fatigued, I just feel like I could use some more coffee. I have only done my yoga so far and that helped considerably w/ the tightness. I wouldn't say I've stabilized just yet, I feel like something is off but I am much better than yesterday. I expect I'll feel even better when I do some aerobic activity. So good news ey? I thought I would have to up-dose another 5% but I can tolerate and function w/ no difficulty so I'll forge ahead! :P Bill- Thanks again for the up-dose information. I would be lost w/out you :D Annmarie- Thanks for sharing your experience w/ me :D I'm happy to know that we are both exceptions to the WD peak rule. I know that everyone is different but it really helped me to know that you had a similar experience. I'm glad to hear you are doing well. I followed your taper w/ Bill and I found it to be extremely informative. I'm so grateful for you all blazing the trail and giving hope to a newbie like me. Schrodinger's Cat- Glad things are going well for you on your taper. Thanks for taking the time to provide the spreadsheets,your ideas and experience throughout this whole thing. ginger44- Good luck on your taper! Keep us posted. Ok I'm off to exercise and get on w/ my day. Hope you all have a great one!!!!!!!! 8) Samantha ----------------------------------- bupeAddict Thu May 27, 2010 1:54 pm ----------------------------------- When I see progress like this, it just makes me wanna do it myself. I tried to stop, did it for 13days but I went back on... (jumped off 0.5mg) I couldn't really take that lingering, annoying WD anymore. It wasn't that bad but I still couldn't function normally. So now I'm at 0.1 -max0.3 (can't really tell). I'll use the liquid taper method from now on, so I'll know what dose I'm on. The thing is, I've been fighting this ridiculous dose for quite some time now and I think the WD's are actually getting softer?? I'm able to skip a day (yesterday), endure some feverish WD, and next day I'm ok (some mild symptoms). It comes in waves though for me... So I'll try to continue skipping days and I'll just see how that is working for me... I'd like to thank ALL you guys&girlz for sharing your stories, methods, sheets, xperiences and diaries lol :) It was a huge boost for me to read that other ppl do have the will to come off and actually are succefull with it. VERY helpful thread! I just hope I'll have a quitting story myself very soon. (not that far since I'm really low actually :) ) ----------------------------------- annmarie Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:59 am Patience ----------------------------------- BupeAddict, You can totally do it! And yeah, the WD from Sub lingers for awhile post jump (this seems to be a pretty common issue). The trick is to jump from such a low dose that any WD you feel will be mild. Then, if that WD lingers, whatever's left will become unnoticeable at that point. When I jumped from 2mgs once, I had terrible WD with lingering aftereffects for months. This time, the symptoms were so mild that I just noticed I felt better every day. I thought 1mg --or even .5mgs-- was a low dose. I was mistaken. Even .5mgs may be too much for you to jump from. If you jumped from .1mg, or less, the WD would be much milder. Bupe, you are doing great! Perhaps you could try to get stable again on a lower dose, then try slowly decreasing to an easier jump amount? I never skipped days. Some people can do that without incident, but my WD comes on fairly quickly, so I found it was easier to just dose a little less every few days. You wrote: "So now I'm at 0.1 -max0.3 (can't really tell)." The liquid method is a MUST for producing accurate doses. You may be having trouble stabilizing because your doses aren't consistent. I discovered that even the slightest .05mg miscalculation was enough to produce WD symptoms during my taper. Once you get to low daily amounts, taking accurate doses is very important for a smooth decrease. Please post with your progress! You are almost there, BupeA!!! Being patient can become difficult near the end, but it can make all the difference in your success. AM ----------------------------------- smat Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:58 pm ----------------------------------- Hello everyone just wanted to give a quick update. :D I cut last week to .66 and had unusual onset WD at about 12 hours. I felt pretty bad after 24 hours but still pseudo functional. I was able to get out anyway. I have to emphasize that exercise is really helping me. My biggest problem is w/ fatigue/jelly legs and I've been pushing myself to do at least 20 minutes of high intensity exercise a day. It gives me incredible energy, straightens out my anxiety, allows me to sleep at least 7 hours a night and I am out there functioning in the world. My symptoms leveled off by about 48-54 hours post cut last week. I made my cut today to .61, a smaller jump because I have a busy week ahead. I actually experienced WD SX at about hour 3 this time! (What is up w/ how quickly I metabolize this drug??? LOL) I managed to stay out and about despite having anxiety, buzzing in my head, brain fog and mild rls. I did some exercise at 230pm and felt well enough to go out again. My plan is to do the exercise 1st thing in the morning because I find it really helps w/ fatigue, energy, anxiety and irritability. I hope everyone is doing well and I hope to hear some updates soon. :D Samantha ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:23 pm Checking in ----------------------------------- Just wanted to check in with a quick update. It's been over 8 weeks since my last dose of sub and everything is going just fine - better than fine actually. I think the main thing now is to always keep in mind... there is no "I can do this just once more and get away with it!" for me. I know in my heart of hearts that if I put another pill (OC, Morphine, whatever) in my mouth (or anywhere else for that matter), I'll probably be throwing my life away in short order. With the amount of crap I was able to consume before I began taking Suboxone, it's more likely than not that respiratory arrest was in my very near future. Anyway, this isn't something I'm going to bother to dwell on, because frankly, I really think that it's counter-productive. The bottom line is - I know what I have to do to stay alive... so I either do it or I don't, and that decision is completely up to me. On a related note - I'm no longer taking Xanax or Wellbutrin and I'm also down to a very low nightly dose of Seroquel which I've been using as a sleep aid. It wasn't all too long ago (5-6 years) that I was completely medication free, and that's something that I want for the very near future. It should only be another month or so... no need to rush - slow and steady will win this race. Best to everyone! Bill ----------------------------------- setmefree Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:39 pm ----------------------------------- So impressed and proud of you, Bronze! You're so close to your goal! I feel exactly the same....It wasn't so long ago for me either (~5-6 yrs also) that it was a rarity for me to even take a Tylenol! I guess I just fell apart at 40!! In any case, it has been my goal since starting Suboxone ~1yr ago, that I would get back to that lifestyle. Before anyone jumps my case....I know I can't go back as if I had never become addicted to opiates....that is now a part of my his(STORY) that I must integrate into who I am and I am forever changed by it. However, for me, it will not define the rest of my story! I will be completely medication free at some point in the coming months....as Bronze said..."slow and steady." And, in part, I will have Bronze and Diary of a Quitter and Shelwoy and Annmarie and others here who have shown me how to do it. Thank you and Congrats! I am glad you are feeling well! ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:37 am ----------------------------------- setmefree - Thank you for your kind words! I have no doubt that both you and I will achieve exactly what we've set out to accomplish. It looks as though I'll soon be traveling to the Gulf along with a few other local wildlife rehabers, and I must say that it's liberating to know I don't have to concern myself with bringing any meds, or missing a bi-weekly clinic appointment for that matter. Things are going so well it frightening! :) Oh, there's one other thing I wanted to mention before I hit the hay - I no longer dwell on thoughts of what opiate abuse has cost me in my life... that kind of thinking doesn't help matters any. I can only move ahead and continue to appreciate just how lucky I am that I have so much living yet ahead of me. Take care! ----------------------------------- winning Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:54 pm taper working ----------------------------------- I've been on subs for about two years. I started tapering my dose last October, and have gone from 8 mg to .055 mg. I have decreased my dose about 10-20% about once a week, sometimes more often. I am down to 1 mg of sub left, so I'll most likely be jumping off in a few weeks. In the past I tried to jump off at 1mg. Every time I tried to decrease from 1mg to .5mg, I'd be so sleepy in the afternoons (my first withdrawal symptom) and so lethargic that I decided to just get it over with and jump off at 1mg. I was sick for over two weeks, with absolutely no energy, and having to go back to work, went back on suboxone. The two weeks were miserable! With the liquid taper, I have mild withdrawal symptoms. Sleepiness the first day, edginess the second and third, usually better by the fourth. I haven't missed a single day of work, which shows that the w/d is very tolerable. I always give myself permission to increase my dose if I need to, but since I'm almost out of suboxone, I am very reluctant to go back up. I'm always fine in the morning after dosing, so the mild w/d is in the afternoon only. My conversations in my head go something like this - day one, a little discomfort, but not too bad. day two, worse, but I've already put up with this for almost two days, hate to dose and have to go through this again. day three, a little worse, but . . . I know it's only one more day, better on day four. It gets tougher when I try to reduce the dose twice in one week, as I get no break that week. But at this point, I want to be on the lowest dose possible when I jump off, and I don't want to go back to the doc. (Spend $120 to go see sub doc to get one 2mg tablet??!! I will if I have to . . . but prefer not!) I do my dose a little differently - I put a 2mg tablet into a 3ml syringe, and draw up 3ml of water. My daily dose was .5ml. Later I cut them in half, then quarters, now thirds. I used to dose twice a day, now only once. I know that this method is not as accurate as I can't be sure of the size of the cut pieces, but has worked fine for me so far. If I drop my dose more than 10%, I get diarrhea. I know that my various symptoms could be seen as mental, and I notice that if I'm thinking about other things, sometimes I "forget" my w/d. But the diarrhea is a physical symptom that isn't affected by my mental state. I take 1/4 baclofen on some of the difficult days. I usually take a sleep aid at night. I've had a few nights that I woke up at 3am, unable to sleep. I'm grateful that those days have been few and far between. A question to those who have tapered successfully - at what dose did you jump off, and were you able to sleep? I think one poster said that she had sleep issues for several weeks, but she jumped off at a higher dose than my plan. My hope is that I jump off around .01mg, and hoping for no sleep issues/lethargy. Thank you everyone for sharing! ----------------------------------- hawker1 Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:18 pm ----------------------------------- Hey Winning, I'm on day 6 with no sub and will post my whole story soon. I skimmed your post becuase I have to get running but decreasing from 1 mg to .5 mg is a big drop. Just try to go down to .8 or so. If you have the 2 mg pills, break in in half an dtry to use less than the half in a day. Just use what you need. When you get under 2 mgs the decreases are felt a lot more becuase you are down to such a low dose your body and brain really feel it. It took me months to go from 1 mg to .5 mgs but i did it slowly and painlessly. I jumped from .1mg and haven't had much issue yet. Just a little anxiety, irritability, restless leg but VERY mild and VERY short lived. I'll be down for 30 mins or so here and there but cheer right back up. So anyway, once under 1 mg you hae to really take it slow. What I did was take a good solid dose in the AM (say maybe .5mg), then I'd take a little sliver around noon or so when you start feeling tired, then take a bit more around 6. Some days you'll need the full dose. Some days you'll feel good and don't need the night time dose or only need a small sliver at night...that's how I did it...used what I needed and always tried to cut a little bit out here and there. hope that helps some! Doug ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:56 pm you guys are doing great ----------------------------------- winning - Excellent job of tapering! In answer to your question - I jumped at .0125mgs (12.5 micrograms) nine weeks ago and felt a little lathargic on days 4 and 5, but other than that I didn't experience any other withdrawal symptoms worth mentioning. When you get a chance you may want to read through the whole taper thread. It may take some time to get through it, but I think it will be worth your while. If you want to send me a PM with any other questions, please feel free to do so. I probably won't be able to respond to you after next week though, so please keep that in mind. hawker - You're doing great! Look forward to hearing about your taper and jump in more detail. ----------------------------------- smat Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:31 pm ----------------------------------- Hey all, just wanted to check in. No cut this week because of some personal drama in my life that has kept me in WD an entire week! Today was my first sx free day and I made my last cut, last Tuesday. I have a compromised CNS so maybe that's part of the problem. Anyhoo....3 good days w/ no sx and I'll cut again. Winning and Hawker WTG! Bill.....great to see you are still doing well! You're an inspiration!!! ----------------------------------- subjohn Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:30 pm ----------------------------------- Hey Winning,... I skimmed your post becuase I have to get running but decreasing from 1 mg to .5 mg is a big drop. Just try to go down to .8 or so. He's already down to .05. ----------------------------------- subjohn Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:39 pm ----------------------------------- It's good to hear other people's withdrawal symptoms. They very so wildly, and that is just a fact. Some people do not even have withdrawal symptoms from Sub (lucky bastards). I'm sure it matters how long you've been on Subs and opiates in general. I find my own withdrawals extremely uncomfortable, even at lower levels. Just the 20 hours I with drew before getting on Subs was worse than anything I've ever felt. I'm really jealous when I hear some one say they just had some light nausea and tiredness. I do get some tolerable withdrawals at first, chills and sweating basically, but not as much a mood affect. But then at some point a haunting uneasiness starts up, an inability to sit still and a generally bad feeling emotionally. And it just grows. I can't sleep through it even with light sleep aids. I dropped rapidly from 24mg to 1 mg, then withdrawals set in more seriously. At that point even .1 mg drops were very uncomfortable and didn't seem to go away even after a week. Anyway, I just wanted to mention my own experience because I think it helps to have a lot of different experiences available so that people know they aren't alone or unusual. Sounds like people make it and do get back to feeling pretty normal at some point. I really thought that exercise was going to be more of a friend to me, and perhaps it's helping and I don't realize things would be worse without it. I tried some rigorous exercise during a drop and it didn't "make the symptoms go away". But I hear lots and lots of people say it helps. ----------------------------------- winning Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:06 pm ----------------------------------- Thank you for the input and encouragement! And congrats to my fellow taperers! I'm still on .055mg a day, will drop again in a couple of days. I got a little confused to see that some people jumped off at .1 and were fine, but I still feel the .055mg. I have a busy week with work, and conferences, so I don't want to be in any more than mild discomfort for the next two weeks. I was feeling a little wussy, glad to hear that someone else got down to .01 which is what I'm shooting for. Bronzebeta, hawker1, thanks for sharing. I tried jumping off at a higher dose and found that I felt horrible forever (two weeks). I'm hoping that .01 will result in only mild w/d. ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:46 pm 11 weeks! ----------------------------------- I've been crazy busy as of late, but I did want to check in, say hello, and give a brief update. Well, it's been eleven weeks now and all is well - it's hard to believe that in a few weeks it will have been three months since my last dose of sub. The past two weeks have been very stressful (nothing at all to do with dope), though I no longer feel the temptation to self-medicate to cope with circumstances that are beyond my control. I'm actually completely medication free at this point and the only thing I really think about now and then is having a cigarette. Speaking of cigarettes... my wife mentioned a few days ago that she paid over $11 for a pack of smokes. We both recall paying somewhere around 35 cents the first time we bought a pack - quite the jump in price. Anyway, getting a little off topic here. Bottom line - feeling great, no urges, no setbacks. Contrary to what the 'Suboxone is the Orange Devil crowd' say, my decision to start taking bup was probably one of the best choices I've ever made in my life. I'll try to check back in a few weeks. Though I may not post quite as often as I once did, I do stop by frequently. Good luck to all, and keep fighting the good fight. Bill ----------------------------------- Nikonite Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:52 am 14 Day Sub Taper ----------------------------------- Whew, just got thru reading the whole thread. Took me 3 days;) Very inspirational. My situation is a little different and one you might find interesting. My addiction doc has me on a 14 day taper. Today is day 8 for me. I was doing 200 mg of Oxycontin daily 9 days ago. My doc started my at 8 mg of sub. He's a firm believer in short 2 week tapers. I know not everyone agrees with that, maybe not even me. I haven't decided what I will do at the end. A few well meaning people on this forum and others are suggesting I stay on sub for months, and I have a new doc who agrees. He gave me a script for more sub and I now have some if I choose to go that route. I am now down to 4 mg a day and feel fine just as I have since I started. I have 1 more day on 4 mg, and then I'm supposed to drop to 2 mg a day for 5 days and then jump. For anyone that's been on subs for any length of time, that would obviously be too much of a jump, but for someone that's only been on subs for 14 days, it might be OK. My taper doc assures me that it will be fine, and I'm inclined to believe him. He's a highly regarded doc in this area, and mostly works with addicts in the medical profession. He's been an addiction doc for 30 years and has been using subs for 4 years. I'll keep you guys informed of my progress. ----------------------------------- metakine Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:41 pm Starting my Taper Soon ----------------------------------- Hey all, This thread has been extremely inspring for me and has given me the courage to finally attempt (again) to kick subs. Here is my preliminary plan... I'm just looking for some advice from those that have been successful. I know that I'm not one of the rare individuals that can jump from 1 mg with little to know withdrawals. Last time I tried to do that, I was utterly miserable for 3 weeks. I'm at about 3mg/day currently, so my taper schedule would be as follows: Day 1-10: 3mg/day Day 11-20: 2.5 mg/day Day 21-30: 2mg/day Day 31-40: 1.5mg/day Day 41-50: 1.25mg/day Day 51-60: 1mg/day Day 61-70: 0.8mg/day Day 71-80: 0.6mg/day Day 81-90: 0.5mg/day Day 91-100: 0.4mg/day Day 101-110: 0.3mg/day Day 111-120:0.2mg/day I plan to make the "jump" at 0.2mg. Does this seem like a reasonable 4 month taper plan that should enable me to continue to work and support my family? I realize that everyone is different, but is there anything glaringly wrong with this planned taper? I am also planning on supplementing the program with hot baths, rest, a healthy diet, regular exercise, a multi-vitamin, plenty of water and cutting back on my caffeine intake. Any input/advice would be greatly appreciated! PS: After reading this thread, I understand the liquid taper method well (I think). I really like the ciggie filter idea because I'm worried about my solutions evaporating and hence becoming more concentrated. Is this a valid concern? I don't smoke, so I don't feel like buying cigarettes just for their filters... has anybody figured out a viable alternative? Cheers! -Meta ----------------------------------- winning Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:19 am ----------------------------------- I didn't use the filters. I'd use a 3ml syringe with .1 ml markings. 1/2 of a ml (5 notches) would be a day's dose. I would take the dose in two phases, half at a time. In the beginning I dosed twice; once in the morning and again at lunch to help with the effect of getting sleepy in the afternoon when the sub wore off. This effect stopped sometime around .5 mg, and I went to dosing once a day (morning, still half at a time, but one dose right after the other). In the beginning, I'd drop a 2mg tablet into the syringe, draw up water. I used a spreadsheet to set up the math and the plan, always keeping the total amount of liquid per day (.5 ml) the same. When doses got smaller, I cut the tablet in half, then quarters, then sixths, always dropping the solid piece into the syringe and drawing up water. It was only at the very end that I had to mix the last sixth of a 2mg with more water than 3ml, so mixed in a prescription bottle. I also was concerned about evaporation, but this doesn't seem to be an issue. I make sure to hold the liquid (about .25ml at a time) in my mouth for at least 10 minutes, sometimes as long as 30. Fortunately I haven't noticed a big difference based on time. I stopped "feeling" the dose at about .5mg. Regarding your taper schedule, everyone is different. The smaller the drop, the less you feel it. Doing a 25% reduction at higher doses (for instance, from 8mg to 6mg) was a piece of cake for me. I didn't even really feel the reduction. But, at very low doses, I'd feel the 20% reductions. A little edginess, diarrhea, a little sweatiness. Very mild, never missed a day of work. So I'd try to do 10% reductions as often as possible. Since I was working with a limited amount of sub, and committed to not going back to the sub doc, I've pushed a few times, knowing that I may experience more symptoms than usual. I'd be fully prepared. By now I know my body - Day 1, almost no w/d. Day 2, a little edginess, gets worse as the day progresses, but a very busy day will take my mind off of it. Day 3, a bit worse, but I know that's the worse day, and by Day 4 I'm better. Day 5, body is fully adjusted to new dose, and I have the choice to cruise (stay on that dose for a few days) or drop again. In the beginning, I dropped my dose once every ten days or so. Towards the end, I'm almost out, so I've stepped it up to every four days. So as soon as I'm 100%, I drop my dose. The majority of the symptoms are easily controlled as they magically disappear when I'm 100% engaged in an activity. For me the diarrhea/loose stool is the one symptom that is entirely physical, so that's been a good bs barometer for me. Sometimes I think I'm getting symptoms, and I remind myself that I don't have diarrhea or loose stol, so that's impossible. And if I do have diarrhea, I take a little immodium D. All relatively painless. I'm now on .026, and will attempt a 50% reduction tomorrow to .013. I'd drop slower, but I'm out of liquid. So, six days on .013, then off. And, have to add one more thing. I'm not around ANYONE who uses, ever. I have a good job that keeps my mind very busy during work, and an active life at home with plenty to keep my happy and occupied. I stayed on subs for about 2 years to fully break the cycle of using, now the thought of getting anything seems entirely foreign (rather than second nature). Best of luck to you, sounds like you're on the right track with the taper, but be sure to have the rest of your life in order too. ----------------------------------- metakine Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:59 pm Thanks ----------------------------------- Thanks for the Reply Winning. Fortunately, I do have the rest of my life in order. I've got a good full time job, a wife, a mortgage, and a child on the way. In addition to tapering, I'm going to make sure that I keep up on a good diet and exercise. I've also made up a spreadsheet so i can keep track of my diet, exercise, dose, and symptoms/feelings each day. I think it will be helpful in objectively looking at the taper process. My biggest concern is that I also have chronic pain in my lower back. In the past, whenever i have tried to get off of Suboxone, I've ended up continually waking up in the middle of the night with back discomfort and been unable to get back to sleep. The combination of sleeplessness and withdrawal always meant that sooner or later I'd end up back on the sub. I'm hoping that this time will be different. I think I've set myself up for the best chance at success. ----------------------------------- smat Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:52 am ----------------------------------- Just wanted to update as I haven't in weeks. I've sort of hit some difficulty. I held my last dose from 6/9/10-7/9/10. I was cutting once a week before that. I held at .61 for so long because there was some major life change going on at the time and I was in chronic WD almost the entire 4 weeks. Diarrhea lasted almost 10 days, RLS never let up and I had some other symptoms like fatigue (body, physical fatigue not head fatigue), anxiety, visual disturbances, headache and pressure. I finally dropped to .57 on 7/9 and I am still having symptoms. before the stressful event that occurred 6/12, my symptoms would subside after day 3 and here I am day 5 w/ severe fatigue and muscle twitching/RLS. I wanted to cut again this Thursday but I think I will wait to see if I can get 3 good days symptom free before I make another cut. Waiting for 3 days in a row symptom free was what kept me on my last dose 4 weeks. I don't know why the WD is worse on these very low cuts. I cut by .05% in June and .04% this past week and I am very uncomfortable. I am still exercising every day and my food is clean and healthy. I guess it's stress. :shock: Good luck everyone and keep us posted! :D Samantha ----------------------------------- tiredofsuboxone Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:38 pm ----------------------------------- I'm very glad to hear of the liquid method,it's simple and it sounds like it will work. I'll keep anyone posted,but I have to get permission from my Dr.,he wants me to continue to take it. Robert ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:15 am What a ride! ----------------------------------- Update time - hope everyone is doing well. A few days after my last post I sustained a cervical injury - C4-C5, C5-C6 and C6-C7. A fragment of one disc got wedged between the cord and bone causing my left arm to lose most of its strength, loss of sensation to my thumb, middle, and index finger, as well as some pretty intense pain constantly radiating from the neck, shoulder, tricep area and forearm. Long story short... went to a nearby clinic, was offered pain meds (refused because I was scared to death I was going to end up getting hooked again) and was refered to a neurologist. Two days later things were much worse so I drove to the nearest hospital at six in the morning. After spending 7 hours on a gurney I was transfered to the state hospital by ambulance and was told a surgeon had been called in and would be speaking with me - possible surgery that same day. Six hours later an associate of that same doctor arrived and said he got tied up and couldn't make it. He gave me a list of surgeons and said that after I was discharged to call around asap when I got home to see which one could take me the soonest. Found one the next day that could do the job in 3 weeks. Had titanium plates screwed in and cadaver bone grafts done on the 27th. I woke up with a morphine drip, catheter inserted (God, I hate those things), pain pretty much gone from the shoulder and arm, hand still numb but less so, and a big ass gash at the front of my throat. Discharged the next morning, and at this point - I hate to say it - I was ready for the pain meds. If I were to do it over again I would have taken the meds prior to the surgery instead of suffering for three weeks in bed with ice-packs every few hours, but I just didn't trust myself. Well, I was taking 60 to 80mgs (I was using ten times that amount prior to going on suboxone) of oxy per day until about a week ago and blew off my appointment with the pain management pros (my wife rescheduled my appointment for the 9th but I'm concerned that they're going to offer me whatever I want but really don't need, and that it's going to be hard to refuse, so I may just blow that one off too). Anyway, things are going pretty well - everything considered. Now I can blame my lousy guitar playing on a bum hand - I'm hopeful it will improve over time - for the rest of my life. :) I'm back to 4-5 mile walks everyday as of 3 days ago and can't wait to be cleared to do at least some push-ups or something for my upper body. I've gone from 210lbs with a 33'- 34" waist to 200lbs/36"... one arm is bigger than the other and I look like I've been in a knife fight - what a mess. :) On Oct 2nd and 3rd I have to go to the State University to be tested for my Wildlife Rehab recertification so I've been boning up on that while I recover - it's hard to believe I'll be 50 years old on the day I take that test... why couldn't we stay 35 forever? Take care everyone! ----------------------------------- sullimi Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:30 am Stay Positive ( this kinda the wrong thread ) ----------------------------------- Hey, 5 yrs ago I had C5,C6 and C7 fused together ( the 4 yrs leading up to the surgery is how I got hooked on pain pills ) the surgery was a 100% success, my arm is working fine... Stay Positive , Mike 1mg ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:02 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks Mike, I really appreciate you sharing that with me... our situations seem similar - my problem developed after a shoulder injury, surgery, and about 4 years worth of oxy use, and then abuse. Hopefully, it's just going to take some time for the hand to get back to normal. .............................................................................................................................................................................. Liquid taper - continuation of the water to Suboxone ratios from my May 25 post! (trying to keep things sort of on topic) 8 milligrams of Suboxone to 61 millileters of water - 1ml = .131mgs 8mg/62ml ---- 1ml = .129mgs 8mg/63ml ---- 1ml = .1269mgs 8mg/64ml ---- 1ml = .125mgs 8mg/65ml ---- 1ml = .123mgs 8mg/66ml ---- 1ml = .121mgs 8mg/67ml ---- 1ml = .119mgs 8mg/68ml ---- 1ml = .117mgs 8mg/69ml ---- 1ml = .115mgs 8mg/70ml ---- 1ml = .114mgs 8mg/71ml ---- 1ml = .112mgs 8mg/72ml ---- 1ml = .111mgs 8mg/73ml ---- 1ml = .109mgs 8mg/74ml ---- 1ml = .108mgs 8mg/75ml ---- 1ml = .106mgs 8mg/76ml ---- 1ml = .105mgs 8mg/77ml ---- 1ml = .103mgs 8mg/78ml ---- 1ml = .102mgs 8mg/79ml ---- 1ml = .101mgs 8mg/80ml ---- 1ml = .100mgs 8mg/81ml ---- 1ml = .098mgs 8mg/82ml ---- 1ml = .097mgs 8mg/83ml ---- 1ml = .096mgs 8mg/84ml ---- 1ml = .095mgs 8mg/85ml ---- 1ml = .094mgs 8mg/86ml ---- 1ml = .093mgs 8mg/87ml ---- 1ml = .091mgs 8mg/88ml ---- 1ml = .090mgs 8mg/89ml ---- 1ml = .089mgs 8mg/90ml ---- 1ml = .088mgs 8mg/91ml ---- 1ml = .087mgs 8mg/92ml ---- 1ml = .0869mgs 8mg/93ml ---- 1ml = .086mgs 8mg/94ml ---- 1ml = .085mgs 8mg/95ml ---- 1ml = .084mgs 8mg/96ml ---- 1ml = .083mgs 8mg/97ml ---- 1ml = .082mgs 8mg/98ml ---- 1ml = .081mgs 8mg/99ml ---- 1ml = .0808mgs 8mg/100ml --- 1ml = .080mgs 8mg/101ml --- 1ml = .079mgs 8mg/102ml --- 1ml = .078mgs 8mg/103ml --- 1ml = .077mgs 8mg/104ml --- 1ml = .0769mgs 8mg/105ml --- 1ml = .076mgs 8mg/106ml --- 1ml = .075mgs 8mg/107ml --- 1ml = .0747mgs 8mg/108ml --- 1ml = .074mgs 8mg/109ml --- 1ml = .073mgs 8mg/110ml --- 1ml = .0727mgs 8mg/111ml --- 1ml = .072mgs 8mg/112ml --- 1ml = .071mgs 8mg/113ml --- 1ml = .0707mgs 8mg/114ml --- 1ml = .070mgs 8mg/115ml --- 1ml = .069mgs Well, that brings you down to 69 micrograms. The lower dose, the easier the jump - I went down to 12.5 micrograms per day, and the jump was fairly uneventful. Bill ----------------------------------- Lilly Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:19 am ----------------------------------- bronzebeta: Sorry to hear about your injury - it sounds horrible. But good for you getting through all that without relapsing! (especially with having to have morphine and painkillers). Good luck on the wildlife rehab, and thanks for coming back and sharing your story. Lilly ----------------------------------- bronzebeta Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:30 pm Thank You ----------------------------------- Thanks Lilly, I think that's been the hardest part of this whole mess... not relapsing. The temptation to abuse under these conditions did seem overwhelming at times and I know I'll be tested again... I just hope I'll be up to it the next time I have to deal with a craptastic medical event. Best, Bill