----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:21 pm I'm new here! Counselor in Recovery... ----------------------------------- Hello! I am a twenty-something female Suboxone patient, and I have been since November 2005. Yes, almost five years. I have not used any opiates, cocaine, crack, pills, benzos, or any other illicit substances (besides a little marijuana in the beginning and maybe one drink every year or so for New Years) since November 2005. I have been on 24mg per day since then. I struggled financially with my treatment and to put myself through school. My dad died in 2008. I graduated college shortly after with an AS in Drug & Alcohol Recovery Counseling. I work at a Methadone Maintenance clinic as a counselor, and have been doing so for almost a year and a half. My life is strange in that I'm in recovery, working as a counselor, on Suboxone, and 'advocating' for methadone everyday as my job. There's a lot more than this, but I don't want to bore you on my first day. (LoL) :lol: If you feel like reading more: Anyways, I've been on 24mg of methadone for five years. I want to taper so bad, I can't stop thinking about it. My Sub provider, who is also my PCP at this time, says, "NO NO NO" whenever I discuss tapering. I feel like I've been clean for a long time and I'm ready! He tell me, each and every month, that I need to stay on and that I probably will be on it for life. He's even gone so far as to tell me that if I taper, I have over a 90% chance of relapse. It freakin' pisses me off! I help others everyday who are on Methadone Maintenance to slowly self-taper, at their own pace, off of the program, once they reach stability in their recovery and in their lives. I want to be done. So, I take three 8mg pills per day. This month, they decided to switch me to the "FILM" The film is like a bitter Listerine-strip-type thinggy that comes individually wrapped. They told me it would taste better! HA! It tastes 100 times worse - Only perk is that it disolves a little faster. The first one I took made me almost gag! Anyways, my initial idea was to totally switch back to the pills if they let me. However, I decided that I can use this to my advantage. Since I cringe to take the film strips, I believe that it helps me to taper in that I put it off as long as possible. So, here's the catch. I work 6am-2pm and I'm up until around 10pm each night, during the week. On the weekends I can sleep until noon or even later, but usually someone wakes me up around 11 or noon with a phone call. When I sleep more, on the weekends, I need less Suboxone. The most I've ever gotten down to is about 2.5 pills a day. Yesterday, I only took 2. Now, during the week I'm usually craving them by about 9am (since I've been up for 4 hours already) and today I didn't take it until 2:15pm. I felt a little hot, but nothing too bad. I may take another tonight, but I till try not to. Now, I also tend to nap during the week, which allows me to skip an afternoon pill every now and then, but that's only sometimes. It's so weird how I don't feel "sick" until I am awake for a while. Anyways, I know I don't need to be on this much Suboxone and I know I want to taper off as safely and comfortably as possible - if possible. I can't take time off from work and I cannot and will not be in withdrawals at work either. My patients will call me on it in a second, not to mention my co-workers. Here's another catch: my PCP/ Sub. Dr. works where I work. This is the worst part of all of it. I just want to be done with it. It's gone on long enough and I am looking for some guidance I guess, since my Dr. isn't on board with it. Oh, also, I do weekly individual counseling with a therapist as well - and some 12-Step Meetings, but not as many as I used to go to. Thanks for reading all of this! Hope to hear from someone soon! ~C.i.R. ----------------------------------- rossma Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:50 pm ----------------------------------- Hello, CIR, There are many different schools of thought regarding the dosages of Suboxone. Some doctors feel that anything over 16mg/day is overkill. It is my understanding that at 4 mg/day or thereabouts, the opiate receptors become fully saturated, and that it is not until people get down below that dose that they begin to experience some w/d symptoms. Read through the posts on this forum especially those under stopping Suboxone. I take 24 mg/day as well, but I take it for chronic pain, too. I recently had surgery and I tried to wean my dose down beforehand. I can say that I got it down to 4 mg/day for three days and I felt no symptoms at all except for an increase in pain. It is hard to know what to do when your doctor does not agree. Maybe you could try talking to him again to see if he would let you try tapering to 16 mg/day for awhile and then go from there, or maybe you could look into getting another doctor? For me, it is important for me to follow my doctor's advice as best I can as it is really easy for me to think that I know better and I know I have to look at that. Your doctor sounds like he knows you very well. I can understand your wanting to get off of this medication but at the dose you are taking you will most likely be a lot better off doing so quite slowly. I am sure that you will receive more feedback from the others. I wish you well. Sincerely, ~Rossma ----------------------------------- donh Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:25 pm ----------------------------------- Welcome to our boards here. It's nice, and refreshing to see a well, written, cohesive, post, that has been spell checked and actually has punctuation. Just reading your post alone suggests to me that you are stable in your recovery. Not that misspelling words means you are in active addiction - that would be crazy. It's just nice to have posts that are easy to read and make total sense. Now, onto your questions, it is always so ironic how things work out. I see so many people that want to stay on Suboxone and they have doctors who are pretty much forcing them off. Then there are those like yourself that want to come off and their doctors are wanting them to stay on. Just can't win, hey? The thing is, I have to agree with part of what your doc is saying and doing with you. He is correct that, especially in those who used at a young age and are still in their 20s, the chance of relapse is huge. Then again, after five years, I think that changes the stats some. Certainly he is on target saying that 90% relapse, but often they are only on Suboxone for a short time. I wonder what the stats are for relapse in those who have been in remission for five years on Suboxone. I doubt it would still be 90%. Thing is, I don't think that we know. Then add to it, can you and do you want to be on this medication for 50 or more years yet? Think of the cost alone? That is a long time. In the end, it certainly would make sense to at least strongly consider trying to stop Suboxone at this point and see how you do. I really do think that should be on the table. Where I do disagree with your doc, and I have current best practices and all sorts of other docs on my side with this, is the dose he has you on. About a year ago or so the best practice was placed at no more than 16 mg for most people. As stated by others, when used for pain, you may need more than 16 mg a day. However, it is very clear and very proven that for the majority of people, anything over 16 mg is wasted. For many people anything over 12mg or even 8 mg is wasted. If you are getting good absorption, you likely will not feel any difference between 24 mg and 16 mg. So if you are looking for opinions and input, mine would be that you certainly should look at lowering your dose. I could see you coming down, slowly and see how things go. Perhaps once you get in the 1 or 2 mg range, you'll start to have cravings, etc. and decide you are not ready to come off. Or, you may find out that you are doing fine and want to try a life free of Suboxone. The important thing will be to have a backup plan in place. You'll want to "relapse" back to Suboxone and not actual opiates or other drugs, should you run into trouble. Given your success, the time on Suboxone, and where you seem to be in life, I really do think it is realistic to give stopping Suboxone a shot. Without a doubt, I think you should get your dose reduced so you don't continue to "waste" excess medication. I hope you'll continue to hang around here and post. It's always nice to have new "faces" show up. Hopefully you'll get some additional input and opinions and together you can perhaps take away some information with which to form your own decision about all of this. Good luck to you. ----------------------------------- Bboy42287 Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:31 pm ----------------------------------- First let me say congrats im going to school for the same thing am im cllose to finishing. But now to you i know how you fell my dr also told me ill be on suboxone the rest of my life which made me upset as wel. anyways you def are in a hard spot cause you see your dr every day. so if u disagree with him it will make things weird at your work which is never good. But at the same time this is your life an he has to understand that. if you think you are ready to tapper then he should support that not tell you how bad it could be for you an you might relapse. im not gonna lie when i read that part i was a lil upset. cause what dr in his right mind would ever tell someone who has been on sub for 5 years they will have a 90% chance at relapse if you lower your dose. I would find another dr if thats how he looks at your case of recovery. thats just me but a comment like that would put me over the edge in the sense you have been seeing me for 5 years no slip ups nothing but if i lower my dose ill relapse most likely seriously that still makes me mad he said that to you. cause ive been on sub for 4 years same as you no slip up just sum weed when i first started sub but have been 100% clean besides sub for a year now. one thing mayb you can try is have your 1 on 1 couns. talk to him about were you are at in your program an you both think its time to lower your dose. ----------------------------------- junkie781 Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:51 pm ----------------------------------- Welkum too da phorum :lol: (sorry, Donh, I couldn't resist) :wink: Regarding dosing, I am in total agreement with Donh, and in fact, I can tell you that when I tapered from 16mg per day down to 12mg per day in one jump I didn't notice ANY difference at all. Just something to think about. It's interesting how many people are coming on here and talking about being prescribed the film now. My doctor has yet to even mention it to me. ----------------------------------- donh Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:06 pm ----------------------------------- Very good Junkie. I actually did Laugh Out Loud (LOL) when I read that! Good one. Now, Bboy, hmmmmm... I'm not laughing. In fact, are you serious? Here is your statement: "if you think you are ready to taper then he You can't be serious? And you are in training to do drug counseling? In no way shape or form is it ever the job of a doctor to ignore the facts and support what a patient may want blindly to do. I could give you a million examples of where a patient may "feel" that taking a medication, not taking a medication, having a treatment, not having a treatment, may be best for them - when it really is not. It is not the job of a physician to simply support what a patient wants to do or "thinks" may be best for them. It is the job of a physician to provide the care that is in the patient's best interest based on current research, understanding, protocols, best practices, etc.. Supporting or giving into what a patient wants is what got Michael Jackson killed. He wanted to use Diprovan to sleep and his physician supported that - even though it was clearly the wrong thing. Many patients wanted Oxycontin and got their physicians to support that and you see where it left them. Imagine if a patient didn't want to take their insulin, or high blood pressure meds, or blood thinners, or fill in the blank, medication? It is not the job of the doc to just support them regardless of reality. It is the job of the doc to explain all of the facts so the patient can make an informed decision. And you are mad at her doc? I think you still have a lot to learn before you graduate. Also, it does not sound like her doc is also her boss. In fact she states that her doc is her PCP - primary care physician/provider. I doubt that her primary doctor runs a methadone clinic. Sorry if that was too harsh, but that statement really surprised the hell out of me, (can you tell) coming from someone that one day may be counseling drug addicts. I will agree with you that this doc, after providing what he sees as the current information and his professional recommendation, may chose to "support" the patient's desire to try to stop her Suboxone. If not, he may then chose to stop the doctor - patient relationship. But the day our doctors start doing what we want, regardless of what we need, is the day we are all in deep do do. ----------------------------------- Jackcrack Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:05 pm ----------------------------------- C.i.R. Welcome to the forum! This is an awesome board and there is definitely a wealth of information here as well as some long time posters and suboxone users which generally results in pretty well rounded and experienced advice and information. I am glad you found us and that you felt comfortable posting. Personally, I voted "yes" that it is time for you to taper, but that doesn't mean I think it is time for you to taper "off" suboxone. It does sound like you have a pretty solid recovery program and are doing very well. For that reason and the length of time you have been on suboxone as well as the higher dose you are on, it would seem reasonable to try tapering that a little bit. As a note, I can go 2 days without suboxone before I start to feel any kind of real withdrawal symptoms so getting to a lower dose shouldn't be too difficult for you. I don't know what the "right" dose might be for you to land on permanently but I would suspect it to be anywhere between 4 and 12 miligrams per day and you would probably still be just fine. That would of course be between you and your doctor depending on how things go. When I say permanently I don't necessarily mean permanently. I do think your doctor has a point in terms of the statistics on relapse in your age group and drug of choice. To him it probably seems like you are healthy, alive, living a good life, and why rock the boat if you don't have to just yet. He would probably like to buy some time and get you to your 30's where your chances improve. I am sure you are very helpful to many people tapering. The sad fact remains that long term, most of those people don't stay drug free long term. I can understand the desire to be "done with it", or to move past this part of your life, to be normal like everyone else, to not depend on medication, to be "free" of all of it. I felt that way so strongly at one point that I just quit taking suboxone. Why not? I am a stable person with a stable life and stable career, great husband, good family, excellent coping skills generally speaking, etc. etc. Both of my suboxone doctors have said numerous times to me that I am not the "typical" suboxone patient and that certain things "just don't apply" to me like they do with others. But when it comes to getting off and staying off opiates, I am no different than anyone else on this forum and it ALL applies to me. All of it. Suboxone made me feel great. The key is that it IS the suboxone that makes me feel that way. But take the suboxone away and my coping skills weaken considerably, I get confused, have difficulty making decisions, feel tired, etc. I jumped off 12mg which is stupid. Had I properly tapered I probably wouldn't have felt so bad. It was nothing like oxycontin withdrawal, but I felt more vulnerable than I have since I tried getting off oxycontin cold turkey. I stayed off suboxone for 3 months. I also have pain issues which was the ultimately tipping point for me going back on. But I can also say that getting off suboxone sounds easy when you are on suboxone and becomes a whole different world when you taper or are off of it. I am by no means saying you can't do it or that you shouldn't do it or give it a try and like I said, I do think you could decrease the dose quite a bit without jeopardizing your recovery or risking relapse. So if you decide to give it a shot, just read up on the different experiences and techniques. Give your reasoning why you want to go off of it a lot of thought. Are you doing it for the right reasons? I suggest talking to several people about it. Know what the statistical risk is. I definitely suggest getting WAY deeper into the 12-step meetings if you intend to quit suboxone because you will likely want and need that support system in place already at the point you go off entirely. Right now things are easy for you on suboxone. Why do you want to do it the hard way? I would just give that a whole lot of thought. This is all based on my own experience and there are others here with equally as valuable opinions and advice that may be contrary to mine. I do wish you the best. I apologize for going on. I think this is a very serious topic that I have grappled with in so many ways and come through to my own conclusions for me.....for now anyways. I hope to see you post again soon. Take care! Cherie ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:14 pm Continued... ----------------------------------- First of all, I hope I didn't start a war here! LoL! Some things I'd like to comment on: 1. My PCP, or primary care physician, has his own practice (with two other physicians there as well) from which he prescribes the Suboxone. He "assisted" me by "putting in a good word" at the methadone clinic where I now work, so that I could obtain a job once I graduated with my D.A.R.C. Degree. He totally helped me out, and once I began working there, quickly discovered that he is the Medical Director of our facility. (Hopefully this doesn't indicate where in the US I am or who the doctor is, as I don't want to put that out there.) So, basically, I feel that in some way I owe him for helping me to get the job, and subsequently I would feel totally guilty to change doctors. Also, some fears of retaliation at work from him are present in my mind, but most likely unrealistic to think. 2. My counselor is awesome! I like him a lot and he's an alcoholic in recovery for MANY years who has helped me a ton! He knows the Dr. and has his own opinions about how the Dr. operates. Mostly regarding his distaste for "addicts" and how no matter how long you've been in recovery (5 years, let's say, lol) and what you're doing now (counseling other addicts for the past 1.5+ years - hypothetically lol) he continues to treat you as though you are a lunatic, drug-seeking, dope monster who has nothing better to do than try to scheme. Unfortunately I'm not exaggerating. It even came to the point where I was going through some panic attacks, and the other doctor in his office prescribed me .5mg of Ativan on a temporary basis when the Dr. was on vacation, which led to both the other doctor and myself getting "yelled at" because "we should know better" that benzos (benzodiazepines) can be addictive and can potentially have contraindications with the Suboxone. I was taking maybe one of those Ativans a month for about a year. 10 pills lasted me a year. But, I don't take them anymore and I conceeded to the fact that I don't need them. I honestly don't like the feeling they give me; unless I'm in mid-panic attack, they make me feel high-ish. I can go on and on but the whole thing is ridiculous... 3. I would like to say that I didn't spell-check or read over my post prior to posting, I just can type wicked fast and I have an education. I have a little OCD when it comes to people writing like they're reliving their pre-hooked-on-phonics days. I too appreciate a well-written post, and yes, I cringe to see things like, "ur dr rlly pisses me of becuz i dont agree wit dat". Yuk. :x 4. So I discussed the whole thing with my new BF, of only a couple of weeks, and he has been a great support. He was up around 115mg of methadone not even two years ago and tapered all the way off completely. I am extremely proud of him and it gives me the motivation to do it. He's dead-set on the fact that I'm overmedicated and he thinks that my Dr. is ridiculous for keeping me at 24mg daily, or even starting me right off on 24mg daily. So, to recap: Yesterday I only took 16mg - No biggie! Today, I waited until after 2pm (which is LATE for me to take it) to take my first 8mg film strip. I took another half of a strip (4mg) this evening around 8 or 8:30pm. The only side effects I had are: when I took the first one, I went and took a hour nap, followed by a nice piece of Apple Crumb Pie with Cool Whip, followed by another hour nap. (I had to throw in the whole pie thing- I love food!) So that's only 12mg today. I was taking 24mg three days ago. The only difference I felt was feeling hot - temperature-wise. But I guess it was sort of in my head, as my boyfriend felt my forehead, hands, and leg and said I actually felt sort of cold. So, I guess this would be the start of the hot/cold sweats/chills thing. However, I think I need to stick to the 1.5 film strips for a couple days, and then I plan on going to taking only 8mg per day and I want to split dose: half of one (4mg) in the mid-morning or early afternoon and then the other half in the evening. We'll see and I will keep you all posted! I feel better already: just getting this stuff out of my head. I appreciate the warm welcome and all of your positive feedback and support! Thank you all! ----------------------------------- donh Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:13 pm ----------------------------------- "I would like to say that I didn't spell-check or read over my post prior to posting" -Show off - I'm just kidding (and a little jealous since I'd come off as a 6th grader without spell-check) Anyone who is on 24 mg of Bup (unless it's for pain) and thinks that they can't go lower or will have problems at a lower dose needs to read this latest post from CIR (Counselor in Recovery). It proves, yet again, that anything over 16 mg, and often over 8-12 mg, is just wasted. I have every confidence that, like many who have gone before her, she will do fine at her target dose of 8mg and won't feel much in the way of withdrawal. The 3rd day will be the toughest but even that will very likely be a breeze. I think that Jack gave you an awesome post with some really great information. Best of all, she has been through it and has first-hand experience - and we here all got to expierence her when she was off the Suboxone (but I won't go into that) :). Your life seems to be in high gear at this point and going extremely well. Just please don't let coming off of Suboxone screw that up - and it can. That doesn't mean that it will, but it certainly can and has for a whole lot of people. Don't become one of them. I am a bit confused about your doc. On the one had it sounds like he went through extra work, effort and energy to help get you a job - putting himself on the line, at least a little bit. But then are you saying that he also doesn't trust you and still thinks you are "a lunatic, drug-seeking, dope monster who has nothing better to do than try to scheme."? Unless I'm misunderstanding this all, how can this be the same guy? If he really did think you were a "lunatic, drug-seeking, dope monster who has nothing better to do than try to scheme," why would he help you get the job that he did? That doesn't make sense. Something still tells me this guy is looking out for your best interest and knows the reality of drug addiction and of stopping Suboxone. The thing that I don't get is the high dose he has you on. He loses points with me on that one. Anyhow, it sounds like you are on the right track. Get yourself down to a reasonable dose and take it from there. Re-read what Jack wrote and think if perhaps you are not better cashing in your chips (staying on Suboxone) rather than rolling the dice and trying to get off of it for the big win. Then there is the matter of getting into a relationship with another addict. I'm not going to go any farther on that one, but I'm just sayin. ----------------------------------- christin Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:59 am Re: I'm new here! Counselor in Recovery... ----------------------------------- The only reason that I'm posting this is because I can't sleep. Otherwise, I think that you've gotten a LOT of replies and I'm not so sure that I can add a whole lot. It's late (so I may have missed something), but I don't think that anyone really has addressed a comment that I found very intriguing: Now, during the week I'm usually craving them by about 9am (since I've been up for 4 hours already) and today I didn't take it until 2:15pm. When I read that comment, I could understand your PCP saying, "NO NO NO" to a tapering plan. Of course, I'm writing only from my own experience, but the first red flag for me when tapering is that my cravings are returning and, when I'm ready, THAT doesn't happen until DAYS after a reduction, if at all. Although I haven't been on Sub anywhere near 5 years, I have been at 20mg and 16mg doses. Unlike what I had been told on other forums, I did experience mild withdrawal symptoms when tapering from high doses. However, when I was ready to taper, I never experienced cravings, not until I was below 8mg, the hardest cravings hitting once I went below 6mg. He tell me, each and every month, that I need to stay on and that I probably will be on it for life. He's even gone so far as to tell me that if I taper, I have over a 90% chance of relapse. I know that this kind of stuff is hard to hear. But, I urge you (if you believe that your PCP/Sub doctor has your best interest at heart) to put more weight on his opinion of your readiness to taper than on the opinions of some very well-intentioned people knowing you only from a post you've made on a forum (I do not mean to offend anyone here. Many people here have helped me and I appreciate it. I DON'T believe that my doctor always has my best interest at heart. I'm not so sure that's the case with the OP). From reading through this thread, I realize that you have decided to taper. But, you're just at the very beginning of the process and, my experience says, it gets much, MUCH harder the lower you go. For me, the phenomenon of craving is the key to addiction. It's what will drive me to use two weeks after the physical withdrawal symptoms are ended, when the obsession remains or returns and my stomach muscles spasm upon reading the word "euphoria" or I want to rip my skin off when a co-worker on Percs talks to me, her pinned pupils taunting me. How you describe your current experience with your Suboxone dose concerns me. You work in a high-risk environment and are dating an addict. IMHO, it would be in your best interest to work with your doctor on any tapering plan. ----------------------------------- Jackcrack Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:18 am ----------------------------------- I will agree with the others who have said that your doctor likely does have your best interest at heart. I think the ativan concern is realistic. He is trying to help addicts, not get them addicted to new substances and the nature of the addict suggests they shouldn't be taking addictive substances. He probably would have preferred sending you to a therapist to teach you meditation techniques than to prescribe ativan. Also, there are huge contraindications to starting a benzodiazapine while on suboxone. You could have died. For that reason, I do think he has your best interest at heart. I agree with Don that the high dose is interesting, however, he is the one who knows you. I also have to agree with the concerns about your withdrawal or cravings sensation taking a lower dose on day one. If you are going to taper, I think it should be done with the assistance of your doctor. One of the aspects of recovery which I am sure you are aware of is that addicts like to be their own doctors. When you start doing that, you are behaving like an addict. Most normal people who believed their doctor didn't have their best interest at heart and who had a concern of retaliation if they changed doctors, would probably find another doctor with a good reputation to get a second opinion from. I also suggest that you be honest with your current doctor. I suggest that you tell him how you feel and how what he says makes you feel. Ask him WHY he is making the recommendations he is making. Ask him WHY he thinks 24mg is the correct dose for you. Ask. It is your recovery and you have a right to be an active participant in this process. Cherie ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:26 am Tuesday morning. ----------------------------------- Goodmorning everyone! Again, I truly appreciate your feedback and support. I have a couple of things to address since reading the most recent posts. 1. I didn't mean to offend anyone when discussing the use of proper grammar and punctuation. I'm a bit cynical at times. 2. I think I used the wrong words when I wrote, "Now, during the week I'm usually craving them by about 9am (since I've been up for 4 hours already) and today I didn't take it until 2:15pm." I did not mean craving as much as I meant that my body is telling me, "Hello, goodmorning, take your meds!" I don't crave my Suboxone, but rather I can physically feel when I need to take it because I am starting to think about taking it. I know that may sound strange, but once I'm dosed, I feel like I have no thoughts of it at all. Before I dose, I am thinking about dosing. It's weird, I know, but it probably coincides with the whole 24mg thing. 3. I agree with many things that have been said here about my doctor. I *hope* that he does have my best interest at heart, and I can't say I am 100% on board with that, but I will try to believe it. The Ativan thing I agree with as well, and I know I mentioned the contraindications and the addictive potential. That's over with anyways. I plan on telling him what I've been up to, as you're right about me at times wanting to "play doctor". It's in my nature. I just discussed this tapering thing with a coworker who knows my entire story. We discussed how our methadone patients have the ability to self-taper and control their own dose freely, as long as they are drug-free and stable in their recovery and in all other aspects of their lives. We cannot tell them that we refuse to taper them. We can make recommendations and explain the process and potential hazards or consequences, but it is ultimately the patient's decision when they want a dose decrease. I feel that if I can continue to feel ok, I can get on a low enough dose to where everyone's happy. I am not saying I want to be off in a year, 5 years, or even 10 years. I just know that I don't want to be where I am at this time. And eventually, I'm assuming I will need the 2mg pills or film as opposed to the 8mg ones. So, I will eventually speak to my doctor. Next appointment is on 11/1/10. I will speak about it in my group with my counselor tomorrow as well. I feel like they will be on my side and perhaps my counselor can help me figure out a way to advocate for this, so that the doctor will be responsive to my decision. I think by not setting a timeline, but instead just setting a goal, I have a better chance of succeeding in this whole process. I am torn most days, between feeling cursed and blessed. I am truly blessed though. 4. I have dated addicts, non-addicts, and when I was using I was dating guys who were using too. I just got out of a 1.5 year relationship with a guy who was clueless about addiction, recovery, drugs in general, my work, etc. I became aware that he was beginning to act condescending towards me and almost looked at it like he was better than me. He didn't know anything about it and didn't want to know anything about it. This led to resentment and ultimately to the breakup. Since then, I have been "dating" or "seeing" this other guy, who I have known for about a year or more as well. Nothing serious yet, just being friends and supporting one another. We have our own opinions and they differ greatly at times, but I think he is on the right track and I am aware of red flags or danger signs when they happen. I never recommend that addicts stick together or find each other - especially when both are patients at the clinic I work at (lol). Anyways, I think in some ways everyone has a little "addict mentality" at times about various things and that if two people are stable on their own, and can handle life on life's terms, so to speak, that it can work out well. I believe that so far, we have done nothing but support each other and motivate each other to move forward and reach our individual goals. However, I do recognize your concerns and I have clearly contemplated over this a lot lately. 5. After posting last night, to ended up taking the other half - 4mg more. So yesterday and the day before, I totalled 16mg per day. No biggie! I plan to try the 12mg and decrease again at some point this week. I already feel more awake and motivated at work. The only trouble now is this laryngitis I have had for about 6 days so far. I don't feel sick but I can barely speak; and running groups today is already a struggle. I will keep you all posted on my developments throughout the day. And again, thank you all for the warm welcome and your insights! ----------------------------------- Lilly Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:37 am ----------------------------------- This has been a great discussion. I just wanted to add something about "saturation". My doc told me at at 16mg/day the opiate receptors are 94% bound by bupe. (Rossma said the receptors are saturated at 4mg, but what I think she meant was that at 4mg you are usually at the ceiling, where your blood level is "steady state" and your daily dose simply maintains that state). So if you have 94% saturation at 16mg, another 8mg can only bind the remaining 6%, which is a high cost for a low benefit. I believe that is why current practice is the maintain at no higher than 16mg/day unless it is for pain or another compelling reason. It seems a little concerning that if you wait four hours before taking your dose, you're getting that feeling that it's time. After taking 24mg for 5 years you should be able to go 2-3 days without noticing a thing, because you blood level is so high. (Again people, where is that chart that shows this!? It would be so helpful if I could find it!) As for your doctor - when you said that the methadone patients are allowed to taper at their own pace as they feel ready, is your doctor the one overseeing these patients? Although I do agree that he wants to keep you safe, it seems odd that he would let the methadone patients taper and not you. I know recovery requires rigorous honesty, but if your doctor is in effect your boss (which sounds like a conflict of interest to me) and he is going to react negatively to your tapering, you might have to go ahead (as it seems like you're already doing) and taper without his knowledge. Like Cherie said, it doesn't mean you have to taper "off", maybe just taper to a dose that feels more reasonable to you. Thank you so much for postin your story. It brings up many issues that people on this forum have issues with and need to discuss. In fact, the topic you mentionned at the end, being in relationships with other addicts vs. non-addicts could really be a whole other thread that I think people would have a lot to talk about. Take care and I wish you the best, Lilly ----------------------------------- hatmaker510 Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:47 am ----------------------------------- I have to agree with Rossma. It's my understanding that at 4 mg (the ceiling) the opiate receptors are saturated. That's what I believe the ceiling means. But I'm no doctor or chemist, so maybe I'm wrong? Counselor - Welcome to the forum. You've gotten great feedback here and I don't think I can add anything more to what's already been said. The only thing I'll say is I think you should be fine to taper down a bit and stabilize at a lower dose. Save you some money and time. Good luck. ----------------------------------- junkie781 Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:51 pm ----------------------------------- This is an excellent thread. A great example of why this is the best forum on the 'net for people taking bupe. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:42 pm Tuesday Afternoon... ----------------------------------- It's Tuesday afternoon and so far, I've taken an 8mg film. I worked 6-2. I feel very tired today, even thought I got a decent amount of sleep last night. Anyways, my BF convinced me to go for a walk today before I crash for my afternoon nap. So, I walked around a cemetary near my house for almost an hour. It felt great! I feel out of breath and a little sore, since my energy level is generally comparable to a potato. However, I think this is a great motivation for me. He's definitely pushing me, and in the right direction. (He rides a bike for miles everyday - like a total nut, in my opinion) But then again, I've never been a very athletic person. So, now I'm back and feeling BAD. I got the yawns and watery eyes like CRAZY and my back is killing me. Anyways, I wanted to comment on Lilly's post when she mentioned, "It seems a little concerning that if you wait four hours before taking your dose, you're getting that feeling that it's time. After taking 24mg for 5 years you should be able to go 2-3 days without noticing a thing, because you blood level is so high. (Again people, where is that chart that shows this!? It would be so helpful if I could find it!)" This sounds absolutely insane to me! I could NEVER even skip one day! I can barely go six hours without feeling the need to dose. Maybe it goes right through me!? I know for a fact I don't drink enough fluids and my food intake is erratic at best, so I can SOMEWHAT attribute my energy level to my health, diet, exercise (lack there of in this case). I feel like if I went even one day without a Sub, I would be in total and utter withdrawals. Believe me, I am prolonging my doses lately, but I'm about to take half of one as soon as I finish typing this (4mg). I find it hard to believe that most of you maxed out at 16mg. I mean, I must have an insane opiate tolerance at this point, compared to the rest of you guys! I feel like I've been overmedicated for years, now that I'm looking back at this time. I was using heroin (intranasally, not IV - not that there's too big of a difference there). And I was up to maybe 3-5 bundles (30-50) bags per day. This may seem insane to some of you, but on the East Coast, and I'm up north, this seems to be about the norm. Therefore, I think my tolerance for Suboxone was perhaps, adjusted or guess-timated appropriately. I think that there's a difference based on geographical location, substance of abuse (which particular opiate was the drug of choice), and the potency of the heroin, if that was the primary drug of choice. Anyways, I'm a bit baffled by this whole thing and I feel like I'm in a sticky situation at this time with the doctor, considering all of the other factors. Also, my doctor is not my "boss". He's the Medical Director of the clinic - next to him (I believe) is a president-type-guy, under him is a Clinic Director, then supervisors, then me. So actually, he's not really someone I have to answer to at work, but more or less I work alongside him. And yes, he does prescribe the methadone to all of the patients. His signature is on all of the documents there and yes, he signs off on every dose change and completes doctor's orders for these changes. I guess it's complicated and I know there's DRASTICALLY different rules, guidelines, and policies for prescribing methadone vs. Suboxone. Hope you all have a wonderful afternoon, and I agree that this is a serious issue that needs to be discussed. I know I'm not the ONLY person in this boat. I wish I found this forum sooner. Perhaps I could have been further along...Perhaps, Perhaps! Oh well! Talk to you all later! (@ 12mg so far today)... ----------------------------------- donh Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:41 pm ----------------------------------- I guess I should have posted right away when I was thinking about it. I just figured I'd made enough comments on this thread. But... When I read your comments about feeling the need to dose so soon, I had the exact same reaction that Lilly did. In fact, I completely agree with her. The reason I think this, is due to the dozens of people that I have read reports from who have gone several days without any withdrawal. It is due to those who have needed to stop their Bup for a surgery (in order to obtain pain medication and actually have it work) and they stop their Suboxone three days prior, find that they are not in withdrawals and sadly their pain meds don't even work - because they still have so much Bup in their system. It is just simple chemistry that at 24mg everyday, you most certainly should be able to go 24 hours without feeling withdrawal, You are so stacked up with Bup, that this simply is the case. Now, before we go further, let's examine this more. Let's start with your comments: "I can barely go six hours without feeling the need to dose." "I feel like if I went even one day without a Sub, I would be in total and utter withdrawals." The word that jumps out at me is "feel". I don't at all doubt that you do feel this way. However, I would strongly suggest to you that these are psychological feelings and not at all physiological responses from your body. Your brain and mind makes you FEEL like you NEED to dose, but chemically, you are very likely not in withdrawals and not in need of Bup. Now, I know, that there are those 1 in 1,000 people that don't process the Bup like others, but it is always amazing how many people think that they are that 1 rather than the other 999. As addicts we always want to think that we are different and we are special. I'm not making up all of this on my own. It comes from my reading and study and frankly right out of Dr. Junig's blogs. He has written multiple times how patients on Bup will often feel like they need more meds or an additional dose or feel like they are going into withdrawals but after he works with them and convinces them to push through it, they do just fine after about 15 or 20 minutes. I have every confidence that if you were prevented from taking additional Bup and someone talked with you and helped you through your craving, you too would get past it and would find that, like Lilly said, you really could go two days without a dose after having been at 24 mg. In fact, if we gave you a sugar pill rather than Bup so you thought you took a dose, you would do just fine. Now at day three and for certain, day four, you would actually have physiological withdrawal symptoms. It would no longer just be in your head. It's just not the case at the 24-hour mark, and clearly not at a 6 or 12 hour mark. Just give what Lilly and I are saying to you some thought. I'm not at all saying you are crazy or anything of the sort by saying that it's in your head. I totally believe that you are feeling the sensation of cravings. It's just a mental rather than a physical reason. It may also mean (may mean not does mean - just may mean) that your doctor is correct and you are not yet ready to stop Bup. It is often these mental cravings that do addicts in when they stop their maintenance. If even at 24 mg you have the sensation that you just have to have a dose every 24 hours, you still have some level of mental addiction active. Then again, in your line of work, I'm sure you already know this. It's often just harder when we have to apply it to ourselves. By the way, exercise is often reported to do wonders while tapering - as you found out during your walk. Your boyfriend is giving you good advice in pushing you to get some exercise, as it likely will make you feel better. And finally, don't rush yourself with your taper. You were on a high dose and not all of it was going un-used. To try to go from 24 mg/day straight to 8 mg/day is a hell of a large drop. You very well may want to try 16 for a couple of weeks then 12 for a couple of weeks and then 8. You are much less likely to feel the drops using this method. You are very likely to feel pretty darn crappy in days 3 through 6 if you cut your dose by 2/3s all at once. After all, you've been at 24 mg for five years. Why go through discomfort rather than spend just another month getting your dose down? After 60 months taking 24 mg, what's another month? You don't get extra points for suffering. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:27 pm Interesting... ----------------------------------- Very, very interesting. I am not at all surprised by what you have responded with. Actually, I go through this same lecture multiple times per day with my own patients. "Methadone has what's called a half-life. If you miss a day, you will NOT be sick. You may even begin to feel uncomfortable physically, but you will not be in withdrawals, as you still have half of your methadone in your system. Your liver and other organs and tissues store some and release it slowly...wah wah wah wah wah..." My patients here this from my mouth on a daily basis. I know it's true and every now and then, I even get someone telling me, "hey, you were right, I made it through 2 days not using and I was ok" etc. etc. Here's my problem. I certainly don't believe I am the 1 out of 1,000. I simply don't have that kind of luck - lol. However, I am far enough along here that I can recognize cravings and can implement coping skills, etc. in order to squash them "with the quickness" I must say. However, I am certainly not imagining the yawning, water eyes, and chills that go with all of this. I am in total agreement that at times, I have to tell myself, it's mind over matter. Perhaps, I am just hypothesizing that these symptoms may possibly be attributed to the way in which I have always dosed. I don't pop three 8mg pills at once, that's for sure. As I mentioned, one in the am, the afternoon, and the evening. It's been this way for 5 years. At one time I switched to one in the am, half in the afternoon, and one in the evening. I saw no difference, which for sure can be explained by the previous comments regarding the "ceiling" and the absorbtion, etc. Now, instead of taking that 4mg I was going to before my nap, I didn't do it. I layed down without it and was ALMOST asleep when my evil aunt decided to crawl out of her lair in hell to call me and upset me with the various crap she spews from her soul-less being. Now, I'm awake again. I'm not yawning and my eyes aren't watering. Therefore, I can only imagine that what was happening before to be earlier this afternoon could have been caused by allergies from my stroll through the cemetary, or due to just being exhausted from work. Either way, I am whole-heartedly tell you all that I cannot go 24 hours or 48 hours without my Suboxone. It is simply not possible. How do I know this? Because I have tried it. I have tried it maybe 3 or 4 times over the years. The farthest I could get was dinner time. Now, I had the same skills then and I was implementing the same coping mechanisms at that time as well. I just said "F- it. I quit." and I was fully prepared to be fine for a few days, get sick, and just cold-turkey the hell out of the whole things. However, by dinner time without the Suboxone, I was, to put it politely, physically attached to the toilet for an extended period of time with the whole spectrum of withdrawals that you would seem to expect to see after 2-3 or even 4 days with no Bup. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just documenting my experience. I now know a hell of a lot better than I did then, however, about slowly tapering being WAYYYY more successful in the long run. So, here's my plan for now: Go sleep for another hour or so, wake up, take a shower, see how I feel and put it off. My fear is: I will not sleep at all. This is an unreasonable fear, as you have all mentioned that I have so much stored up in my system. (Not sure if my skin is crawling because I'm talking about it, or because it's time to take some.) Maybe I will continue the experiment and not dose for as long as possible, but I would rather do the following right now: Go with the 16mg for a couple of more days and then bump down to 12mg somewhere between Friday and Saturday. As I said, I don't want to rush things here, but I don't want to prolong things either or start randomly dosing at random times. I do agree with the fact that I am NOT a doctor and I don't want to mess up my system more than it's already been. I have also discussed this at legnth with my mother, who I share a home with, and have informed her of my plan. She is supportive, agrees that this has gone on long enough, and is prepared for me to become more hostile and bitchy than usual. Well, in all actuality, she basically said, "If you're going to bitch, go outside." And it's pretty cold here so, I will try to also monitor my responses to others and general mood throughout this whole thing too. Perhaps it's time to move this thread over to the STOPPING SUBOXONE section...We shall see... ----------------------------------- Jackcrack Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:27 pm ----------------------------------- CIR I whole heartedly agree with everything Don said. Right now, you ARE in fact claiming that you are that 1 in 1000 in which case you wouldn't be lucky, rather UNLUCKY. This is possible. Because your physical reaction to discontinuation of suboxone is so outside the norm and statistics, you should probably discuss it with your doctor because for you, if you are that 1 in 1000, it will be much different. The advice on this forum is not likely to help you at that point because the people giving it are NOT the 1 in 1000. If you ARE the 1 in 1000, then it would have nothing to do with your tolerance to narcotics. Believe me, there are people on this forum who have taken enough to kill 4 horses at once and still the 16mg of suboxone works just fine for them dosing once per day. It is a metabolism issue, not a tolerance issue, or at least that is what I believe Dr. Junig once mentioned. I am CLEARLY not a doctor. I will say that in my personal experience, prior to learning about the properties of bupe, I feared missing a dose and would WATCH for symptoms. I don't agree that I do not notice it at all when I skip 2 days. I can skip a day (do not prefer it) and if I keep busy, it won't bother me at all. In fact I think it is all psychological at that point. Day 2 I actually wake feeling fine and certainly will think about it but am still basically ok the entire day. It is day three where I start feeling it. The yawning will kick in at evening and then insomnia starts in the morning. By day 4 insomnia and withdrawal is full force (NOT as bad as oxycontin withdrawal or even close - I mean full force for sub). The same timeline applies for tapering 4mg or more at a time, except that on days 2-3 I will get sniffly, pupils enlarge just a bit, and I start yawning. The watery eyes start but again, not like oxy. With oxy it was like I had to carry around a tissue to mop up the eyes and with sub I can still just wipe them away with my hand. It just isn't the same withdrawal at all. With tapering, it stops at some yawning and psychological cravings and maybe some sneezing. The best test for you to tell if you are actually having withdrawal or not is to go look in the mirror at your pupils. Do they respond to light? How large are they? You may in fact want to go look in a mirror in your bathroom after a dose to see what they look like and compare them to something in size. When you check 6 hours later, look in the same mirror with the same lighting. Then look 12 hours after dosing and see what they are. You know you are in withdrawal when your pupils are HUGE and I mean HUGE like non-reactive to light huge. When I jumped off 12mg mine were huge WELL after the physical withdrawal symptoms went away. In fact they were huge for about 2 months at least. People would comment on it they were so huge. It was weird looking. If your pupils aren't huge, then you probably aren't in any kind of REAL withdrawal. I say this because that is something your doctor would want to know about and likely would want to see so he could in fact make better recommendations for you. That is something you can't control and that does not rely on your self report. Psychological factors cannot change that whereas psychological factors CAN make you yawn, or make your stomach sick, or make you feel pain or insomnia. In my opinion psychological factors also cannot make you sneeze but I could be wrong on that. Sneezing was huge for me when I was in withdrawal. Cherie ----------------------------------- Jimmy Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:30 pm Agree with others ----------------------------------- Hi, I'm new here too but have been on sub for about 3 years. I went from 32 to 8 in a week with no problems. Now I go back and forth between 4, 6, and 8 but try to only take it once a day. Yes sometimes I "need" that evening dose but I know its just good old fashioned cravings. I encourage you to seek out a couple of Dr. Junigs posts: Anxiety, are you sure? Video post about ceiling effect Maximum absorption. We're all in this together. I wish you the best, and hello to everyone here. Jimmy ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:32 pm Down to 6mg! ----------------------------------- Hello everyone...Just wanted to post a quick update, as it's been a few months. I got down to 8mg and have been stable on that for a while. Since I went from 24mg to 8mg per day, I have lost a total of 25lbs! I was not overweight or anything, but I really think the additional sleeping and water retention was not helping when I was up at 24mg. Anyways, I started going down again and yesterday I only took 6mg. I am going to try hard and do 6mg today too and possibly for the next couple of weeks. I am more determined than ever to get off of the Subs. I have a very supportive boyfriend who was able to taper off of methadone completely and he motivates me big time to be done with it! After a terrible altercation with my doctor again this week, I feel like I really need to get going and get off!! I woke up late today, since I didn't have to work due to all this snow we got in New England... And I really didn't feel that bad; just some slight yawning and that feeling like you need to stretch out... Not quite to the point where I wanted to remove all of my skin or anything, but I can definitely feel a difference going from 8mg to 6mg. I didn't feel that bad going from 24 to 16 to 8 at all.... I'm really worried about the end. I read about that disolving in water technique, which I would definitely consider...Anyways, I will keep tracking my progress on here - and I'm thankful for everyone's feedback and the fact that this site even exists!! My doctor still will not "allow" me to taper...he still thinks I'm at 20mg. I feel like he wants me to be on it forever! It's been 5+ years and I'm SO READY to be done!!!! ----------------------------------- hatmaker510 Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:36 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks for the update. If you went from 8 to 7, you might not feel the drop at all. You could do that by taking 8 mg one day and 6 the next and so on and so on. That's one of the most painless ways to taper down. Remember to let yourself adjust to the dosage drop before doing another drop. Keep us posted on how you're doing. ----------------------------------- IneedTostopThis Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:59 pm Congrats to C.I.R ----------------------------------- Hi C.I.R, I see that you too are from New England-- lookin' to come off of suboxones. I too am 24 years old from Cape Cod. I have been on subs for two years now and am SO ready to come. I realized it was time because it was started to give me high blood pressure, something I never had a problem with in my whole life. Well, now I am on medication. I just really want to be off everything and just live a normal lifestyle... working out and eating right. I don't want to be locked down due to medication either anymore. However, the past two years the most I was taking was 8mg... I actually had my scripts and was only taking a quarter in the morning and quarter at night, well, after a year my tolerance built and I went up to a quarter in the morning, afternoon and TWICE at night. bad habits.. because mentally there are many times a day where I am just TRIGGERED to want that quarter!! Well, I am back down to 6 mg and sometimes 4mg... like yesterday and today I only took 4mg... I NEED help with a plan to taper off so I don't die from withdrawals...after four years and many times in rehab and days feeling sick because of my 5 30 mg percocets a day... I have not told my family that I am on suboxone for two years they have thought I was "clean". I have nothing bad to say about suboxone because it has done wonders. I am in my second year of college, I have held a job for two years... but now, I am feeling the fright of withdrawals and depression since it is time to taper off. Please help me!! Anyone who is willing to share a succesful taper or plan or wisdom or encouragment! ----------------------------------- hatmaker510 Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 pm ----------------------------------- Hi and welcome to the forum. It seems to me that if you are still taking sub when you feel the need to take something, that maybe you're not ready to taper off? Plus, why not start living that "normal" lifestyle now - it will help you to be stable and healthy as you taper off. Do as much as you can to to life a healthy life - physically and emotionally and your chances of staying clean once you come off sub will be much better, in my opinion. But I do think you need to be on a stable dose and take that it at the same time every day. If you're still triggered to need suboxone, how will you handle when you get off it and your cravings for opiates return? Have you learned new coping skills to handle triggers/cravings or any relapse prevention? Please know I'm not trying to be rude, but if you really want off sub, you need to really be ready for it, in every way. Try to think of sub the same way you would your BP medication and try to take it and forget about it. You have the illness of addiction and right now you're on a medication for it. Anyway, I hope I haven't said anything to upset you. I only want to see you succeed. And again - welcome. I'm confident you'll find the support and information here that you're looking for. There are some really terrific people here. Best of luck to you. ----------------------------------- rule62 Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:44 pm My Tapering ----------------------------------- Just a quick note to say that I too went from 24 to 16 to 12 without any ill effects. I'm at 12 now but doubt if I'll have a problem going straight to 8mgs. Do what you think is best from what you've gathered from all the posts you received. And I'd like to add that you've done really well taking nothing else but Sub all these years. I can't say that. I feel better with some Xanax but only take it about one week out of the month. And only .75mgs so it is a small amount. It just levels me out but I feel guilty for it. Tom ----------------------------------- Lillyval Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:42 am ----------------------------------- CiIR - It's good to hear from you, I was wondering what had happened. Many people have said they found it easy to taper from high doses down to 8mg. (I actually tapered down to 4mg quite quickly at one point and felt nothing). Its at the lowest doses that you really start to feel the difference. So please start taking it slow now, and really let yourself adjust to a lowered dose before you reduce again. And like Hat said, reduce in much smaller increments. Best of luck to you. Lilly ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:04 pm Day 2 on 4mg!! ----------------------------------- Thanks for your quick reply! So, Wednesday I took 4mg in the am and 2mg in the pm...for a total of 6mg on Wednesday. Yesterday I woke up around noon since I didn't have work, waited an hour, and took my 4mg. I then fell asleep around 5pm and slept (not very good sleep - very restless) until 5am this morning! So, yesterday, I only took 4mg. So, today, I woke up at 5:40am to go to work, and arrived there at 6am in bad condition. I even had a co-worker ask if I was 'dope sick'...I sneezed about 12 times in a row, had the yawning, watery eyes, skin was crawling, hot & cold, etc. Despite some of the comments I've been left, I truly do not believe that if I skipped a day, that I would have been ok...even back when I was on higher doses. Anyways, I stuck it out until about 9am. I then took 4mg. My freakin' back is KILLING me for some reason - This is the lower back pain I remember that has caused relapses for me years ago... I would get clean from heroin and then have such wicked lower back pain whenever I was PMSing, that I would end up back on the opiates in no time... Anyways, I am going to try hard to not take the other 2mg (1/4 of an 8mg) tonight, or else I'm going to try to wait until WAYYY later if at all to take it. I mean, it was uncomfortable this morning, and I was definitaly irritable and easily annoyed (especially by my coworkers booming voices coming over the intercom...ugh) but it was tolerable: I've been wayyy sicker in the past. I was still able to type and see patients and such so we'll see. I'm not going to rush this, but hopefully my body can acclimate to the 4mg per day by the end of the weekend. Also, I heard on some other thread that no matter if you jump completely off at 2mg's or 0.2mg's, that the WD's are going to be the same!? Have any of you heard that - it seems logical in some respects, but it also seems like - why the hell would so many people taper and why would doctor's taper you if that was the case!? anyways, I hope you all are well and thanks again for your support! Keep these posts coming!!! I'm going to go shopping now and try and distract myself for the afternoon/evening... Oh! One more thing I wanted to mention: I wonder if it's because of the fact that I've been free of illicit drugs for 5+ years, but even when I was experiencing WD's this morning, I didn't have the least bit of craving for heroin - my drug of choice - I'm assuming that this is because my brain has been trained for so long to look to the Subs and not the dope...Weird... Just thought I'd throw that in there... <3 CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:32 pm ----------------------------------- CIR, I was wondering if you might be approaching or have past below the 'ceiling' of suboxone. Your wd symptoms seem a little on the nasty side for the 4mg to 6mg level. Once you get to the 'ceiling' area, you may need to slow your taper down. UGH, WD sucks! You were asking if jumping from 2mg or .2mg would produce similar wd symptoms. I don't know if that's true or not, my opinion is that it would, for the most part, be false. I do belive this, I think the piper has to be paid sooner or later. One could jump off at 2mg and 'get it over with' and pay the piper really quickly or one might taper down to .2mg and pay the piper more slowly along the way. I think a lot of it depends on your personality and how long you're prepared to be in wd. You mention even though you were experiencing wd symptoms this morning, you had no cravings. WOO HOO!! Isn't that a nice feeling!! I remember being where you are and having those craptacular symptoms and I too had no cravings. This has been said many times here before, but it bears repeating, Suboxone gives us the chance to get our heads right. It gives us a chance to step away from active addiction. It enables healthy thinking and combined with a good counselor or a good recovery program, the potential results are incredible. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:39 am ----------------------------------- Dear Romeo, I think reading your post was exactly what I needed right now. It's 1:30am and I've already taken my 6mg for the day. I guess I just dropped below that ceiling with this last decrease, as I feel like absolute CRAP right now! Craptacular is my new favorite word. I will use it and think fondly of your post as soon as I can lol...Anyways...I was debating taking another 2mg or even a 4mg so I could get some decent sleep tonight and then just try again tomorrow with the tapering...but hell, I'm yawning SO MUCH I'm definitely going to be able to sleep, simply based on the fact that I've been up since before 6am... To take a little piece (or even a half) more...this is the question...Hopefully I'll just pass out, but if not, I'm doing it...seriously...maybe I'm not as ready as I thought, or maybe trying the whole: 8mg Tues, 6mg Wed, 4mg Thurs, and 6mg today just screwed me up...yuk! Trying to go to fast with the 4 on Thursday I think has left me weak lol... Also, for those of you who are avid ciggarette enthusiasts, when tapering, did cigarettes taste like total CRAPola to you all too?? I can barely stomach a cigg with the WD's I felt this AM...I almost was thinking of quitting those too, but I guess one thing at a time here is a smarter idea... Hope to hear from you guys soon:) CiR ----------------------------------- Diary of a Quitter Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:52 am ----------------------------------- Hey CiR - I just wanted to chime in and wish you good luck with your taper. I tapered off Suboxone 17 months ago by slowly tapering down to a very low dose. My withdrawal wasn't too bad, I didn't have to take time off of work or anything. The first 2 weeks were the most intense and then it got better and better until I felt totally normal. If you want to read about my taper, it's in the Liquid Suboxone Taper Method thread, and on page 2 or 3 of that thread there is a link to the thread I started when I stopped Suboxone completely. Some thoughts I had for you - If you are having a really hard time with withdrawal symptoms as you reduce below the ceiling level, you could ask your doc for some comfort meds. I had good luck with Clonidine and I also took clonazepam to help with the withdrawal. Clonidine helps with a lot of the physical symptoms, including the sneezing and goosebumps and hot flashes, but it made me very tired so I took a half dose unless I wanted to sleep. It helped with anxiety too, and it's not a benzo so most doctors are pretty comfortable prescribing it. I remember that getting down to and then below the ceiling level was difficult for me. At that time I started splitting my dose and one thing that worked for me was taking 1mg in the am and 3mg in the pm. For me, being active and distracted during the day made it easier to cope with the w/d symptoms, but if I couldn't sleep at night I just couldn't function. Taking the majority of my dose at night ensured that I slept well and the 1mg got me through the days ok. Make sure that you are keeping your meds under your tongue for as long as possible to get max absorption too - it really helps. Getting below 4mgs was hard as well and I went down and then back up again a few times. At one point I was down to 2mgs and then I had a bunch of life stress and I got sick and I ended up back up to 4mgs for a little while. Just take your time and try to be patient and have faith that you will get there. I spoke with my doctor about the difficulty I was having and he gave me the clonidine which really helped me get back down below 4mgs again. Once I got down lower, it seemed like I had an easier time with the withdrawal symptoms. I'd been through it and I knew what to expect, so I scheduled my dose decreases so the effect would hit me on my days off - plus, I knew that it wouldn't last forever and that I'd stablize in 4 or 5 days so the uncertainty didn't get to me mentally as much anymore. If I remember correctly, I went from 4 to 3 to 2 to 1.5 and then I sucked it up and did a big jump from 1.5 to 1mg in order to get ready for the liquid taper I was planning. This all took a matter of months, by the way. Then to get below 1mg, I did the liquid method. I went down to 0.8 and then I lowered by .1 mg every 2 to 4 weeks, just feeling my way along. I think just knowing yourself and how you react and factoring in what you have going on in your life is the best way to schedule how fast you want to taper. I don't know if you are just trying to lower your dose or if you intend to stop altogether, but either way it's a good way to go in my opinion. Other things that really help are exercise (yoga was great for me and walking and dance), healthy diet, supportive social interactions, laughing a lot, keeping perspective, and reminding myself that even when I felt like crap it was good because my body was adjusting to making its own endorphins again. Let me know if I can help you out along the way, take care of yourself and keep posting. ----------------------------------- Romeo Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:06 am ----------------------------------- CiR, DOAQ brings up some excellent points. The clonidine helped me A LOT, so I'm going to reiterate that point! I think what you are going to have to do is find a taper schedule that works for you. Some people rocket down at 20% every week and are good like that. Some people go very, very slowly and that works great for them. Try to find your own schedule, one that works good for you and your mind/body. I know I HATED hearing this during my wd, but here goes.....you can function very close to normal on very few hours of sleep! I know it sucks laying in bed staring at the ceiling, no wait, it's craptacular! But, it can be done. I'm living proof that you can go to work all day and function pretty close to normal on only 2.5 to 3.5 hours of sleep for weeks on end. I hope by now you're off in la la land. I'm going back there shortly too. OH Yeah, why don't they just add insult to injury by making our cigarettes taste like someone laced them with dog crap! I know exactly what you're talking about. But, thank goodness, I'm a super stubborn individual who refuses to admit to himself just how absolutely crappy the cigarettes taste and I push on, hoping for better tasting cig's to find their way to me. BTW, no luck yet, but then again it's only been 8 months. Just a drop in the bucket baby, I think I can hold out for years to come. YIKES, I told another member I was going to quit...I hope they don't read this post! ----------------------------------- junkie781 Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:36 am ----------------------------------- You know what I'm beginning to wonder about the tapering process is this: Let's say you taper down slowly from 16mg to 4mg.....now you're right about AT the ceiling at 4mg, most people say. It's when you get below the 4mg that it starts to get difficult. So, I wonder if it's really beneficial for us to drag out that time below the ceiling? You know what I mean? For me, it got very difficult to deal with cravings and urges at around 2mg, and what I wonder is, if I just quit and toughed it out for a week, would it be any better than prolonging that agony I felt at 2mg? ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:49 pm ----------------------------------- Jan. 29th~ I did end up taking another 4mg last night...which is totally bizzaro! I ended up with a total of 10mg then yesterday...which is the opposite direction than I'm working towards! I am definitely looking to get off completely, and as a counselor in the field of addiction, I recommend slow tapers to all my patients (methadone).... Anyhow, I had 4mg, then 2mg, then the other 4mg last night - By the time I sent that post through last night, my legs were on fire and I just wanted to be able to sleep! So, I'm trying to go with only 6mg today, which I know I'm making a mess of this whole thing at this point - I was stable on 8mg per day for so long, I don't understand why I felt like total crap all day! I think I'm better off dosing once per day than spacing out little pieces, as I've noticed the WD's are much worse... Maybe it's all in my head, but anyways I took 6mg at once today (3/4 of the 8mg pill) so I feel great so far....most likely due to that extra 4mg last night. To: Diary of a Quitter: I wish I could ask my MD for the Clonodine...Unfortunately, if you've read my previous posts, you'd know that he's a total CRAPHOLE! (to put it mildly)... Anyways, he thinks I'm still at 24mg a day, for the past 5 years, and is TOTALLY against me tapering, which I'm assuming is due to the fact that he is a money hungry doctor who has no intentions of getting anyone COMPLETELY off of anything! He tells me my chances of relapse are 90% and he is the most discouraging person I have encountered when discussing my taper. So, basically, I have to do ALL OF THIS behind his back with no medical advice, which I don't recommend. I know, I should change doctors right? Not going to work; there's a lot more too it that I might have previously documented. He is also so against benzodiazepines (Klonopin, Xanax, Ativan, Valium, etc, etc) that he flipped out when his partner prescribed me .25 Ativans for my intense panic attacks, and told me "you should know better, and you know the addictive potential"... BAHHH!! Anyways, I take one of those VERY RARELY and I'm not about to get reliant on anything else; if I could get ahold of some Clonodine, I totally would, but I've been so removed from the drug game for so long, I wouldn't even know who to ask. Anyways, I feel like, at this point atleast, that I have enough Subs that I don't have to suffer right now. I will take it slow, and maybe when I'm on a WAYYYY lower dose, I will attempt to come clean with him and explain what I've been doing, and ask him for help. Maybe when he realizes that I've gone from 24mg a day for five years to whatever low dose I eventually get to, he will be more apt to help me and assist me with getting off completely. He has my monthly urine drug screen results to help back me up at that point, so we'll see.... To Romeo: Maybe you should try quitting the ciggs next! LOL! Seriously, that's my plan for once I get off these things. One thing at a time I hope! 8 months is HUGE! So, let me get this straight, you're totally OFF of Subs, and still posting!? That's awesome!!!! Seriously! And I totally commend you ALL on your progress! Suboxone is NO JOKE and I am beginning to think that people don't take it as seriously as they do other drugs. I know people who will use heroin, percs, oxy's, and subs like they're candy, but the thought of methadone to them is totally taboo! I don't get it...Lack of education somewhere along the line I suppose! Another issue: I have been given the pills for most of the past 5+ years up until a couple of months ago, when I was prescribed the film strips. I told my MD that they almost burned under my tongue!?... I have been asking for the pills and he said he will give them to me, but for only the next couple of months, which I think is crap. He claims, they're totally going to stop making the pills, and only make the strips - Have any of you heard this??? I think he's just getting more $$ from Reckitt Beckisner, or whatever the manufacturer is, to push the strips. Check out the suboxone website - it has all of these so called "perks" about the strips and doesn't even mention the pills! I think there's some kind of conspiracy going on here lol...Who knows.... ~CiR~ ----------------------------------- hatmaker510 Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:06 pm ----------------------------------- I'm sorry if I missed it, but have you thought about every other day tapering? Like 8-6-8-6, etc. That's a pretty painless way to drop down 1 mg at a time. As for the doctors pushing the film, well, RB has convinced them that they are better because they supposedly have a lower chance of diversion. I've heard people say their doctors told them the same - that the pills will be phased out. My doctor didn't tell me that, in fact when I told him I didn't like the strips he put me back on the tablets. Many of us think that RB came up with the strips/film to have a new patent. And if everyone starts using them then even if someone comes out with a generic tablet, they're more likely to stay on the strips. It's all about $$$. That's my theory anyway. Good luck and keep up the good work. ----------------------------------- donh Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:09 pm ----------------------------------- I always hesitate to make this recommendation, but Councilor, I guess I can just put it this way: Clonidine is pretty easily available over the Internet and without a prescription. It's not like it's a controlled substance or anything. So if your doctor won't provide it for you, it is likely only a few mouse clicks away out of Canada or even from inside the USA. ----------------------------------- Romeo Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:23 pm ----------------------------------- donh is absolutely correct. Actually, we had a member just few weeks ago order Clonidine from the net and he received them in no time. It's an option if you want to look into it. I believe the thread is Day 4 off 4mg - Help and the members name is inneed. Yeah, 8 months no suboxone, no nothing! I had a couple of close calls, but my motto now is it's OK to bend, just don't break!! The couple of close calls serve as learning opportunites, they actually made me stronger! Don't get too bummed out about your taper Miss Counselor. You got down to 8mg and stabilized there, right. Then you went to 6mg, how long at 6mg? I just saw how you did 8mg Tues, 6mg Wed, 4mg Thurs, then last night hit you....now I see why. By Friday, you had a serious drop in your suboxone blood concentration. Your body was pretty upset with you!! Personally, I like the 10% or 15% reduction. Stay there until I would stabilize. Then repeat. Either way you go, I wish you luck. I know how trying it can be. ----------------------------------- laddertipper Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:16 pm Hi CIR ----------------------------------- Hi and sorry I haven't ever replied to you yet. I was reading but it seems like everyone got all the important stuff down already. I just wanted to throw out a few things. You know, whenever I read any thread like this it's had to know what the safe thing to say is. I mean, part of me wonders if you are really ready for this, but the other part of me knows what it's like once my own mind is made up and it sounds like your mind is in fact, very made up. :wink: So, I'd just echo what has already been said about relapse. IF you relapse, please relapse onto Suboxone. So, as far as your taper goes, I'm tapering too and I've struggled so badly with it and failed a number of times. I read that you felt really yucky and so you took 4 mg extra, right? I hope I'm getting that accurate. Well, my thought on tapering successfully is that there are times we need to take more, but in general, when you go down and then go back up because you cannot handle it, it takes a toll on your resolve and faith in yourself. Or I should say MY resolve and MY faith in MYSELF. I believe it's better to go more slowly and not ever have to feel the 'failure' of taking more. I put that in quotes because it's not really a failure when your overall trend is downward, but at least for me, it psyched me out so badly every time I had to tap out and take extra. Just consider that when planning how much to taper. Slower can certainly be better and even faster in the long run. Have you tried cutting the films? I have the small films, but I'm thinking the 8-mg ones can be cut into small pieces too. I've cut the 2's into eight pieces, so I'm assuming the 8's can be cut that small too, and then you could go down 1 mg at a time and you wouldn't have to take any extra, as least for a while. Just a thought. I still have something I call my 'tap out' point, which is the point when I will admit to myself that I'm just too ill and will take a little extra. We all have our limits! You've made a huge amount of progress and I would give you a big hug if not for the computer issue. donh and Romeo, wow, thanks for that Clonidine tip because my doctor will not give it to me and he acts as if he's never even heard of it being used for Sub w/d. I thought it was a pretty common thing.....Anyway, as I get lower, I'm gonna need it, or at least could really use it. A few clicks, huh? Hat, I agree that it is largely about money with the films. I thought it was funny to hear my doctor trying to plead the case for the films. All of a sudden these tabs I've been on for 5 years are bad because (1) my kid may take them because they are citrus flavored so they are so tempting (2) they are inconvenient because they are in a 'big, huge' bottle that 'rattles' in my purse which is 'embarrassing' (3) they take sooooo long to dissolve. I just found that hysterical because none of these factors have ever been mentioned as a problem before the films and I wasn't given the option of switching to a better thing. It's just THE only thing he prescribes now, so I don't know why he even tried to sell me on it. Is it a liability issue for the doctors? Both because of diversion and kids getting their hands on them? I really think that if my 3-year old was so unsupervised that she could access my Suboxone, get past the kid-resistant bottle, and then eat my Suboxone, well then she'd have enough time to climb up and get her baby scissors and snip the film packet open, and if this was indeed the scenario, then I'd need a whole lot more help than just switching the form of my Suboxone. laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:56 pm ----------------------------------- Ugh! I just read all your recent posts. So, as for an update, I did 6mg yesterday day and then caved and took an extra 4mg last night! I just felt so terrible! My boyfriend was touching my arm and I wanted to bite his head off and jump out of my skin. And that is just no fun at all on date night!!! Anyways, I've only taken 6mg today and I plan on going to bed early, so that I can avoid taking any more. I am going to try hard again this week to stay just at 6mg per day. After re-reading what I wrote the other day, I can clearly see my error, and I do know that my levels in my blood made my body flip out! I need to be consistent, and I'm a pretty inconsistent person. I keep filling the "void" I feel with delicious cookies and junk food - no good! But I did do some sit ups and helped shovel the roof today, so I could tire myself out a bit! Romeo~ thanks for your replies, I am beginning to look forward to them. You guys are all super supportive and I know as long as I keep consistent with my doses, times I take them, etc., that I can surely get the hell off! Thank you as well for the link for the Clolodine - I thought it was Rx and I wouldn't be able to get it online! Also, I read about that Gabatrol on another thread - See Gabatrol.com for some more info on that if you're interested - I haven't found any concrete proof on its effectiveness while tapering, but the MD on here seems to like it and promote it... Laddertipper~ My doctor gave me that same load of crap. And frankly, I've never been embarrased my rattling tictacs, nor have I ever bitched about the "ginormous" bottle of pills I carry around. I think the strips are SUPER pain-in-the-assy to open! They drive me nuts and if I don't have scissors, I either end up ripping the actually strip while opening, or shredding the packaging with my teeth! As I've posted previously, I do sort of look forward to switching to the strips again, but only because I can cut them smaller! Anyways, thank you guys again and I'll be sure to keep you all updated...It's just so screwed up right now... I work 6am-2pm and I have to go to sleep SO EARLY when I have work the next day. When I don't have work, or when I stay over my BF's house, it seems like I'm up to midnight or 3am even - sometimes later! My sleeping patterns are screwed up and I can function on 2 hours of sleep, but not happily. I don't look forward to my sleep being messed with as I keep going down. The only perk so far is the extremely weightloss and the fact that I have some more energy...So glad I have somewhere to vent!! Talk to you all soon:) CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:29 pm ----------------------------------- Hmmm, date night with you sounds like date night with Hannibal Lecter!! HAHA lol Ah Ha, you say you're a pretty inconsistent person. Thanks for mentioning that and now I'm obviously going to tell you that inconsistent + taper = Ouch! My best advice to you at this particular moment in time is to go back to 8mg, stabilize again then try a % based taper. I just had an Excel spread sheet spit these numbers out. It's based on a 15% taper. The numbers are all in mg. 8.00 6.80 I would do 7mg here. 5.78 I would do 6mg here. 4.91 I would do 5mg here. 4.18 I would do 4mg here. etc. etc. 3.55 3.02 2.56 2.18 1.85 1.57 1.34 1.14 0.97 0.82 0.70 0.59 0.50 0.43 0.36 0.31 0.26 0.22 Of course, if you get to where you can live at 6mg in the next couple of days, start at the 6mg dose then taper accordingly. I certainly didn't mean to insult you by stating the obvious? I do silly stuff like that from time to time. You might notice that dropping slower, you stabilize a lot quicker too. You might actually go a lot faster by using a smaller % drop. Just a thought. Lastly, I found it very, very beneficial to split that dose up to 2 or 3 or 4 times per day dosing. Whatever works for you Miss Counselor lady is the best taper in the world! Yum, I love cookies and junk food too. I don't think it's a terrible idea to fill the void with sweets, unless you have an eating disorder, then you have to be very careful. I eat candy and chocolate (frozen Reeses Cups) everyday, I'm a chocaholic, no doubt. In my case, it's much, much better to go the chocolate route than the opiate route. Thank goodness my metabolism is still pretty decent, I'm only about 10lbs overweight. Hey, thanks for the Gabatrol link!! BTW, you're doing great, you just don't know it yet! ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:16 pm ----------------------------------- Romeo~ Hannibal is an extreme! Maybe the old man from the movie The Unborn would be a better analogy - If you don't know what I'm talking about, here's a link to a pic of him! http://vrempire.com/movies/chilling-my-twin-haunts-me-website-for-the-unborn-movie.html ANYWAYS, I wonder what's up with you men and the Reese's addiction. As I mentioned, my BF, who has tapered off of methadone in the past, has been a Reese's-a-holic ever since! He eats them to go to sleep believe it or not...Weirdos! So, as for an update, I stuck with 6mg yesterday, went to bed at 9pm because I had to work at 6am this morning, and I was FINE. This morning I felt a little crappy when I got up, but that subsided and I put off my dosing until after 9am. This worked so far and I feel better and more stable now that I'm not being a wacko with my dose. So, I like you're spreadsheet figures, however, I don't know how to measure 3.55 to 3.02...I don't want to get THAT crazy with being exact. I try to eyeball my dose when I break up the pills, and I know this would be WAYY easier with the strips, as they're bigger and you can cut, measure, etc., but I HATE THEM! I liked the liquid taper method via DioQ...as he mentioned in his thread about disolving and measuring the smaller doses out. I plan to do that once I'm wayy lower. I'm just not sure at this point how to get to down that low. Since I can only get the 8mg pills (due to my doctor not "allowing" me to taper off - after 5 years at 24mg in case you all didn't know this already) I believe my difficulty is going to come some time around 1-2mg. I suppose I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it, however, it's not THAT far away... ALSO~ It's so MESSY to keep breaking up these pills. I could be taking 5.something or 6 or 7.something - since they don't break evenly, it's all an eyeball guestimate...I am now off to read some different posts and see if anyon'e's come up with another way to get this breaking up thing any more accurate. I could dissolve them; that's pretty time consuming, plus I will need to go out and buy something to measure it with, etc. Perhaps I can weigh it out? I know my iPhone has a scale application - anyone ever tried that!? Let me know if yes!! Thanks! CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:31 pm ----------------------------------- Holy Crap!! That guy scared the heck out of me, I'm gonna be having nightmares tonight!! :lol: Yeah, I only eat the frozen Reese's Cups at bedtime, for some strange reason it helps me fall asleep. If I wake during the night, I eat a few more then back to ZZZZZzzzzzz no problems. During the day I'll usually munch on some kind of snickers bar in the afternoon, Snickers doesn't make me fall asleep. HAHA Are you kidding about the 6mg yesterday? I mean, ARE YOU KIDDING? You feel good at 6mg? That's so great to hear!! I hope you feel great tomorrow and the next day too, that would be super. Yeah, the spreadsheet figures, they do get super hard to measure.....especially using an 8mg pill. I had kind of forgot the 8mg pill part. Just get as close as you can. I certainly understand how you say you think you're taking 5. something or 6. something. That is a universal complaint when it comes to suboxone tapering. Just measure the best you can and it will have to suffice. Oh how I wish you could get the 2mg pills! It looks like you're going to have to check out the Liquid Taper thread, Madame Counselor. ----------------------------------- donh Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:43 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, I was going to say that because of the 8mg pill thing, you can certainly do a liquid mix to make things easier. Just get a syringe or dropper or something that you can measure in 1 cc increments and then do a one to one mixture where you use 8 CCs of water for each 8mg pill. Then just draw up 4.5 ccs (or whatever the dose may be) and to it that way. Nothing says you have to wait to go below 1 mg to move to liquid - especially when having to use 8mg pills. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:36 pm ----------------------------------- donh~ Thanks for the advice - I will look into it when I get a bit lower, but it makes sense. Even to measure out 5mg, it would be beneficial...So, basically just mix with (cold?) water until the whole thing disolves, then hold the mixture under your tongue?? That may be difficult for me, as I'm usually running around, talking, answering the phone, etc. at work (that's when I usually take my dose - even though I do know that you're supposed to keep your mouth shut lol...Keeping my mouth shut has never been a strength of mine:) Romeo~ If that one scares you, how about the ice cream man from the movie Legion ?? Ever see that one? The video is way better than explaining that one that the photo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZw5qaNre_k If that doesn't give you nightmares...I could keep trying lol :) Miss Counselor <3's scary movies! Which, in all actuality, I read that scary movies can help your WD's and PAWS, since I guess fear (among other things) release endorphins, as I was reading on a website earlier. Check it out if you're interested: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73599 It actually has some ready good suggestions... not sure about how reliable the site is, but I checked it out quick...Enjoy:) Miss CiR lol ----------------------------------- Romeo Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:48 pm ----------------------------------- Mademoiselle Counselor, don't make me break out the french on ya! As for your last post, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I HATE, HATE stuff like that. I ain't going anywhere near that second picture!! I like George Bush's version of the fool me once thing too, he said something like fool me once shame on me, .......*pause for thought* you can't fool a fool twice!! And I still love the guy, how scary is that! I'm glad scary movies help you with WD, they just plain scare the hell out of me!! ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:09 pm Romeo~ ----------------------------------- Ah, it's all in fun! It's not real! It's the movies! But I guess you haven't seen Legion or The Crazies...any other scary movie people -I think those were pretty greusome... Hannibal is a classic, but weakens in comparison... Ok Romeo, I will stop trying to scare the crapola out of you:) hahaha... :twisted: ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:13 pm UPDATE ----------------------------------- Update: Ok, successfully took 6mg yesterday and so far 6mg today. Feeling - physically: eh. crawly skin, some sneezing, a little easier to poop (sorry if too much information lol)... Feeling - emotionally/mentally: happy! hopeful! And looking to the future! I am excited about my taper and excited to say, "I went from 24mg a day to 6mg a day in the past 4-5 months!" I feel like more ALIVE!!! I know that might seem weird to those of you who may be at 6mg and haven't been any higher on their dose, however, I know it's only going to get better from here as far as enjoying life, feeling generally happy, and less comatose! It's almost like I'm high on life - weird pink cloud of tapering I suppose! Despite the WD symptoms, I have a great attitude and I hope that doesn't dissipate as I continue to drop on my dose. I am going to work on trying to figure out the best way to go from 6mg to 5mg. That is my next task - I think I might invest in a digital scale - perhaps that will work -who know! Anyways, we got a CRAPLOAD of inclement weather here...Yay for New England! Ice, snow, sleet, freezing rain, ice cold temperatures, etc. But my heart is warm - my toes are not... Shoveling is keeping me going and wearing me out at the same time - weird! I like keeping this journal-of-sorts... Not sure if anyone cares but I'm PUMPED today!!! Yay me!!! Ok, enough gloating for one day! Stay clean people:) CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:56 pm Congratulations on your huge progress ----------------------------------- You've come so far. I truly proud of you and you deserve to be proud of yourself too because sticking with a taper over and extended period it TOUGH!!! It really is, and maybe 'regular' people wouldn't understand the magnitude of that accomplishment, but that's one of the reasons you are on here. I have a lot of advice for you. Basically, as I've tapered from 8 to 2 in about 3 months I would tell you where I went wrong and what NOT to do. It was comparatively easy to taper until I hit about 4 mg and less. Then, it got so much harder, and I knew it would but it was still a surprise somehow. You need to prepare yourself mentally for that, and you have to BELIEVE that even when you feel badly, it WILL go away. You've got to dig down deep inside yourself and ask yourself how much you truly want this. Be honest with yourself. I tried tapering before, but I didn't really want it badly enough to go the distance. That just won't work. This is a huge feat of endurance and patience. Keep giving yourself those pats on the back because every step downward, even if it makes you feel yucky enough that you need to slow down a bit, is getting you closer to your ultimate goal. If you complete a hard drop, take a break once you are stabilized. Just give yourself a chance to enjoy feeling consistently good. Try to accept the time this is going to take and accept that you cannot know right now exactly when you will be comfortably off. You know the cliche of 'one day at a time'? Well, it's a fantastic concept. THAT is getting me through right now. Now that it's hard, my only concern is today, and sometimes only one single hour. So, at the end of every day I am victorious!! That is keeping me going. I felt a huge rush of emotions returning just like you described, which was really, really surprising, and it can feel good and bad. It's interesting, if nothing else. Try channeling those feelings if you can. Try learning to play an instrument or learn to sew or anything like that. Why? Well, when you are feeling yucky, which at some point will likely be the case, those things require enough concentration that the hours fly by faster. I'm sure your job is helping you more than you even know!! I think that you have such a wonderful attitude that, frankly, I'm learning from you. You've got to figure out a way, any way, to measure out smaller doses. It's just not going to work to keep dropping in big chunks, especially since you have to work and cannot just be sick/couch-bound. Would your doctor agree to you dropping down 2 mg or even better yet 1mg? Maybe if so, he'd give you the 2 mg tabs/films. My closest friend went through the same thing with her doctor just refusing to drop her dose, so she had to convince him to just drop her a little bit so that she could get the smaller dose tabs. In that case, you could take the majority of your dose using the 8's and then use the 2's for the remaining bit. If he absolutely WON'T do this, then take the majority of your dose in tab/film form and then use the liquid taper method to take the rest. Ex: to take 5 mg, you could take 1/2 an 8-mg tab and 1 mg in liquid form. Do the liquid part at home. When you first drop, it helps to split up your doses more, especially as you get down further. That's what I do and then as I stabilize, I start combining them into fewer doses. When I dropped to 2, I took it in 4 separate doses, and now I take it only twice a day. You have to figure out what 10% would be and then just round it. To be honest, I didn't stick to 10%, but I've paid for it!! I think you can maybe handle another 1 mg drop from 6 to 5, but it may be better to go to 5.5, as 10% of 6 is .6 which is closer to a .5 mg drop than to a full 1 mg drop. You can always go down quickly if it's a very easy drop. Don't ever drop until you are 100% certain that you are 100% stable at your current dose. It's bummer to go back up. I was thinking maybe I could handle going from 2 to 1.5 or maybe even 1. I blazed down from 32 mg several times and was even able to go down 8 mg at a time but going from 3 to 2 has been HARD!!!!!! So, I'm going to have to go to 1.75, 1.5, and then see if maybe I need to drop in even smaller amounts than that. It's just not worth it to be sick and miserable if you don't have to, KWIM? I'm excited for you and excited about how excited you are!! It's nice to 'know' other people who are tapering too. laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:06 pm ----------------------------------- Laddertipper~ Thank you for your post! It undoubtedly included very valuable advice indeed! I too felt like "oh this is no big deal" when I went from 24 to 16 to 12 to 8...practically in no time and with little to no physical symptoms whatsoever. Now this last jump to 6mg has made me nervous, since I have "felt" it in various ways. I know this isn't going to be easy or a breeze, especially the lower I go. We shall see! I appreciate your feedback and I look forward to "keeping each other company" as we keep on tapering!! I feel like it's important to have people who know what you're going through. Even though, as I've mentioned, my BF has tapered completely off of methadone in the past...He continues to look at it like "toughen up" and you can just "kick it" "no problem"...which perhaps he's right, only partially though. If I do it my way, I know I can do it. However, despite the fact that he is supportive, he has no idea how to properly motivate someone else! I am not him! My body and his are a hell of a lot different. I actually have feelings, something he's removed himself from a long time ago... But I get emotional over various things, not just the taper, and he thinks I should "toughen up" "be an adult" and "don't cry you are stronger than that"... Which gets me into a whole other topic about how I express anger, fear, and anxiety via tears and not much else...But I digress, I still feel as though I need to make my own path, and I don't feel "defeated" or like a "failure" if I have to go back up for a little while, because, as you said, I'm still ultimately getting closer to my goal mentally, which is half the damn battle! He has motivated me in some ways, but in other ways, I just tune him out. He will say "you don't need that other little crumb - you're fine"...But if I'm taking it, chances are that I've been contemplating for hours and finally feel shitty enough to do so... Anyways, I appreciate your feedback and I hope to keep in touch with you! You are doing amazing as well - and screw everyone else out there who doesn't understand or doesn't think it's an accomplishment! We are doing this for ourselves, as it should be!!! I do have some vacation time, so towards the end, if I have to just take a week to grin and bear the potential PAWS and the last of the WD's...so be it. I just have to keep focused and positive - I think those are the only things that keep us going! And yes, I have been looking into some "activities"... exercising a little (which is more than NONE - and I've always managed to NEVER exercise lol) as well as some art stuff, thinking about crocheting (however you spell it) or knitting again...etc. I'm an artisitic and creative person. I like to read, write, write poetry, etc. I'm sure I will find more than enough things to keep me busy...In addition to all this damn shoveling!!! Anyways, keep up the good work and talk to you soon:) ----------------------------------- Romeo Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:21 pm ----------------------------------- Counselor, Check your Messages. I sent you a PM. Scroll to the top of the page, far right it says Messages. ----------------------------------- Lillyval Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:14 pm ----------------------------------- Junkie, I was on another website for over a year with people either going CT or tapering from a long acting opiod. There was much discussion about the worth of tapering past a certain point to minuscule amounts. After reading dozens and dozens of experiences, I felt that the long taper was just prolonging the agony. I think if I tapered down to 1mg, I might try dosing every other day or every third day, but I don't think I would go any lower. That's just me, though. CIR - I just posted on another thread that I felt crappy at 2mg. I didn't make it clear that I felt crappy when I DOSED not because I felt withdrawal symptoms. So I guess it concerns me that you are feeling withdrawals at 6mg. But I think you said at one point you had been at a very high dose for quite some time, so maybe that's it. hang in there. ----------------------------------- Paratrooper Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:20 pm ----------------------------------- Hi CounselorinRecovery, I just wanted to let you know you are doing a good job and I am proud of you for completing your Associates Degree and helping other addicts. I too am attending school and am one semester away from obtaining my Bachelor Degree in Psychology combined with Criminology. You are an inspiration to me because you choose to use you education to help our fellow addicts. I am sorry I did not read every response to your original post so I am not sure how your taper worked for you. I hope it went well. I am curious though as to why you feel you need to taper? Suboxone saved my life and without it I could never had come as far as I did. I plan on staying on it for as long as I live with no thoughts of discontinuing it. We are all different though. I am not trying to offend you or anyone else in any way shape or form by asking why one chooses to taper of Suboxone. ----------------------------------- Lillyval Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:25 pm ----------------------------------- BTW About obtaining clonidine on the Internet....I have low blood pressure, so wouldn't it be potentially dangerous for someone like me to start taking clonidine? What if someone doesn't know their blood pressure? just be cautious people. CIR...I'm in NE too! How bad does it suck now! How do people who have to get to the methadone clinic do it? I wonder if you work at the same clinic my friend goes to.... ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:03 pm ----------------------------------- Lillyval~ I might purchase the Clonodine, and maybe even the Gabatrol (see the previous page for the link)... I also highly doubt that I work at the same methadone clinic lol I don't want to give it away or anything, as my anonymity here is super important to me, but i'm sure there's at least a couple dozen methadone clinics in New England...But maybe:) Anyways, it certainly does suck - this weather this year is NUTS!!! Paratrooper~ Thank you for your comments:) Good luck with your degree! As soon as I can, I plan on going back to school for my Bachelor's too! Right now, working and trying to maintain what's left of a social life I have is enough for me at this point! My hours are crazy and I know I would suck at night school, so as soon as I'm certified in counseling, which should be next year or thereabouts, I plan to go back and maybe work on a private practice for counseling...or I might get out of the field altogether! It's extremely draining and emotionally trying each and everyday. Especially when patients die... or tell you about intense traumas...It's not for everyone but I do hope I may be planting a seed for someone out there! Anyways, the reason I want to taper it that it's been a LOOOONNNNGGGG time... Suboxone and I have had quite a long-standing romance. Almost as long as the one with me and heroin. So, I just feel as though it's time. Maybe I will never make it off of Subs, but I really would like to try. I want to live my life NORMAL again...not that it's not as normal as it could be, but the doctor's appointment, drug testing, and other BS I have problems with - I'm sick and tired of being tied down to it! Everytime I get new health insurance, it's a huge ordeal. When I lost my health insurance a few years ago, it was a big ordeal. I just want to live my life again without any foreign substances in my body. I am in my mid-twenties and I do want children, maybe, someday! I want my body to get used to it's own endorphins and neurotransmitters again! I want to be me, just me, without Suboxone. I'm sure there's a thousand other reasons, and I know there are. I know others have different reasons, but I'm just done. It's like with methadone; some patients can handle knowing that they're going to need it forever and some taper off after a year or two. Everyone's different. I just know it's my time to try and work on getting completely off. Slowly, but surely, it is my goal. It's like, something I just need to do for me...Whether anyone else gives a hoot - I could care less!! However, those that are closest to me agree that it's time. I'm not sure if that answers your question, and I'm not sure how I can even clearly and fully answer it myself... Romeo~ I will check my inbox:) UPDATE: Good at 6mg yesterday, but took a Flexeril because my back was crying over all the shoveling. Thinking about taking another 2 or 4mg's tonight, because last night I slept like CRAP! And I want to be able to sleep tonight, as I have work tomorrow. Not taking anymore Flexeril for a while - they are ok every now and then, but I know they have the potential to make you get reliant on them. Addictive potential - that is... And I'm good with only taking one when my whole body is killing me from strenuous physical activity. I won't use them to ease WD's - as I don't believe they can - maybe the RLS part. ANYWHO...We shall see... I will continue to write tomorrow:) Nite all!! ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:01 pm UPDATE #2 for today... ----------------------------------- Just went to make an Excel Spreadsheet for my TAPERING!!! I think it's easier to have it like this in front of you and I think all of you that are tapering ought to do this! It really helps keeping a log - even if it's written down on paper. If you need help with Excel program - either XP or Vista - I can help:) Ok, so here's what I've got so far: Tuesday 1/25/2011 8mg Wednesday1/26/2011 6mg Thursday 1/27/2011 4mg Friday 1/28/2011 10mg Saturday 1/29/2011 10mg Sunday 1/30/2011 6mg Monday 1/31/2011 6mg Tuesday 2/1/2011 6mg Wednesday2/2/2011 6mg Ok, so basically you can see where my mistake was right? That Jan. 27th drop had me in shambles, which make me OD for the next two days - I think I shocked my system. And those two days where I took 10mg, were orignally 6mg days with an additional 4mg at night because I was in WD's... Ok, so after 4 consecutive days on 6mg now...I am still feeling it, but trying to stick it out. I want to feel better, of course, but I also don't wanna have to go back in and change a 6 to an 8 or even a 10. I am sticking with single digit numbers goddammittttttt!!!! Ok, so here's my plan as of today, which can change at any time, since, as I've mentioned, I can be wicked inconsistent. I will stay on 6 until the end of February and then try going to 5 or 4mg. Most likely 4mg. Go hard or go home! LoL! We shall see...hopefully my body will be stable by then on 6mg. We shall see!!!! Ok GooDNighT people!!! CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:09 pm ----------------------------------- I like your Excel spreadsheet! That's a great idea. I like your plan to stay on 6mg until the end of February too. That gives you plenty of time to stabilize and get to feeling good again. As far as your plan to go from 6mg to 4mg, this is where the wheels come of the wagon, IMHO. That's a 33% drop! Why not go to 5mg, stay there for several days, THEN if you feel good at 5mg, go right to 4mg? Just my two cents Counselor Ma'am. :) ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:27 pm Yikes! ----------------------------------- Ok, so I got through last night, keeping in mind laddertipper's advice that after day 5 of a drop you OUGHT to feel better... And I do! I don't have the creepy skin feeling anymore! Hooray! I toughed it out last night, and stuck with 6mg. If not for my spreadsheet, and the disappointment I would have felt if I had to go back and change the 6 to an 8 or, GODFORBID, a 10! Ok, so I took my 6mg this morning at work and hopefully it won't "wear off" by the time I'm ready to go to bed again. I slept like CRAP again though... Very tossy/turny and some *S*T*R*A*N*G*E* dreams... and by strange, I mean like a "B" horror movie...maybe even a "C" lol! At the time, though, they seem so real and frightening - not drug related though, so I don't know what's up with that. Anyways... Romeo~ I can't stand thinking about this stuff in relation to percentages. I can't look at it that way for some reason. When my boyfriend was suggesting jumping from 16mg to 8mg, I told him he was nuts and I ought to go to 12 first, but I ended up going right to 8 - 50% of my dose, and I was fine...Now, I know this is DRASTICALLY different once you get below this so called "ceiling" thing, and once you're in the lower numbers. 33% doesn't scare me - perhaps it should! And I guess I will find out soon enough. Here's my stubborn and inconsistent thinking patterns popping up again though: It's hard to break an 8mg tablet down enough to get 5mg. It's a pain in the ass enough to break it in half to get 4mg and that half to get 2mg! My 2mg chunks continue to look weird and not all even...I have tried one of those pill cutter things with the razor in it, and seriously, it just shatters the pills even worse than you can do with your own two hands. I thought about disolving with the liquid, but again, I might be a dumbass, but I just can't see doing that at this point. I wish I could tell my doctor so that I could get the 2mg pills or strips; that would make life easier. However, I'm not a "make life easier" type of person I guess. Plus he (my MD) would KILLLLLLLLL me for being at 6mg in the first place! I want to be able to walk into the office and say "hey Doc, I haven't used, you can test my urine all day long, and guess what!? I tapered my damn self off of Subs. Been doing it for months, and FINALLY I'm free of you, this office, the appointments, the prescription, the "special patient" BS, the stares like I'm some raving drug-seeking lunatic! I'm a professional dammit! I have successfully tapered, without your help whatsoever!" And maybe, just maybe, this will give him a different view of what he's doing there. Just what is he doing there? Making TONS of $$$ I suppose... In addition to acting and verbalizing that "an addict is an addict" and we're all the same! 90% chance of relapse, Doc? You can **** it out your ***!!! Well, enough fantasizing about that day for now. That day really isn't important. The day that is important, to me, however, is the day I have been off of Subs for a few months, feeling 100% ME and confident in my recovery. That is the day I will celebrate. In some small way, by myself, with some delicious Ben & Jerry's Brownie Batter Ice-Cream and eat the whole damn pint. Why? Because I can. Sure, I can do that now. But seriously, can I fully savor that delicious chocolate specimen in this condition!? My answer, maybe not your answer, is NO, I CANNOT! Now, don't get me wrong, I am undoubtedly of the opinion that Suboxone has saved my life. It literally kept me out of prison and out of the inevitable coffin I was RUNNING towards when I was using. I thank my doctors I've had in the past 5+ years on the Subs for treating me and keeping me stable. However, 24mg a day for 5+ years seems obnoxious TO ME! I know some people may need it indefinitely. I am not some people! I am *insert my lovely name here* and I want to be COMPLETELY non-reliant on opiates. I feel like my body SHOULD and WOULD make the necessary chemicals my brain needs to stablize. I don't regret getting on Suboxone, but I believe that I will regret it sooner or later if I don't make every attempt to get off of it. Perhaps my reasoning and logic is skewed, but I believe that I have overstayed my welcome so to speak, and been lied to for years at the same time. Ok, enough of my babbling for now. I digress... Off to read my 1 message I have waiting and I will talk to you alll soon enough:) CiR ----------------------------------- junkie781 Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:38 pm ----------------------------------- Junkie, I was on another website for over a year with people either going CT or tapering from a long acting opiod. There was much discussion about the worth of tapering past a certain point to minuscule amounts. After reading dozens and dozens of experiences, I felt that the long taper was just prolonging the agony. I think if I tapered down to 1mg, I might try dosing every other day or every third day, but I don't think I would go any lower. That's just me, though. I think I agree with this. I have no plans to taper right now, but this makes sense to me. I mean, the withdrawal from 1mg, I think, would be fairly insignificant. Then, the sooner you begin the PAWS process, the sooner you're going to get to the other side, right? ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:01 pm ----------------------------------- Junkie~ I honestly could not even begin to guess at how the WD's would be jumping off at 1mg. One, because I'm still at 6mg and two, because I believe it is different for everyone. What one person considers SEVERE withdrawals that keeps them bed/bathroom-ridden for days may be MINIMAL for someone else who is out of bed and working everyday throughout. I would assume that the sooner you get off, the sooner you'll get through the PAWS...Sounds logical. However, after reading a decent amount about PAWS, it seems that not everyone gets them (especially those who are on bup for a short time period). Anyways, whether you do taper at some point or chose not to, you have to decide what's right for you. I'm not tapering because I have anything against Suboxone. I promote it's use for sure. I think each person is different, and each person's treatment plan should be individualized, which is up to the treatment provider. This is the ideal, but as I've mentioned, my doctor isn't the best at individualizing treatment. Therefore, I've basically been forced to hide my taper, which I highly DO NOT recommend for anyone. Anyways, good luck either way and I don't think that jumping off at 1mg is the right thing for everyone, but maybe for some...!? CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:08 pm ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery, You Go Girl!! I love that attitude!! It's the exact same attitude that got me to where I am today. Now, has my recovery been perfect, hell no! But am I hanging on like nobody's business, hell yeah!! BTW, I'm sorry I keep forgetting about the 8mg pills being hard to slpit. After work I am going to the tattoo shop and getting 8mg tatooed on my forehead so I don't forget again! I will never forget again!! Yeah, I'll probably forget with my very next reply. :cry: ----------------------------------- laddertipper Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:44 pm Doing the happy dance for you! ----------------------------------- You are making some great progress and your attitude is wonderful. I love it and I love reading what you read. It makes me feel so happy and positive. It's contagious. I want to tell you not to take big drops in your dose as you get lower. However, I should take my own dang advice!!! :lol: You may just have to learn the hard way like many, many of us on and off this forum. It's so weird to be blazing down many mg at a time and try to conceive of the fact that all of a sudden, a 1 mg drop may be too drastic....or better yet, a .5 mg drop may be too much. Live and learn, right? Your attitude is going to make this a lot easier for you. I've been so terrified of PAWS and w/d in general. I mean, I've been so scared that I've stayed on Sub to avoid it and I've given it way more power than it deserves. Sure, it's uncomfortable, but it's not impossible. It only makes it worse to stress over things that aren't even happening yet. What i tell myself when I feel icky is "this is temporary!" As long as something is temporary, I feel like it's doable. laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:38 am 2~4~11 ----------------------------------- Good Morning All MY HAPPY READERS! (In middle school this wack-job reading teacher used to come onto the intercom and say that EVERY morning...YUK! It still rings in my head like it was yesterday!!) Anyways, it's 8:35am - Been at work for 2.5 hours and feeling terrible! I just took 4mg now and I'm going to try splitting my dose today to see if that makes a difference for me, as far as feeling like absolute crap at night and when I wake up. Everyone at work keeps commenting on how skinny and tired I look...I guess this taper is taking a toll on me. Anyways, I stuck it out last night AGAIN! I keep teeter-tottering on taking a little bit more so I'm not tossing and sweating all night, but I've been just pushing through the pain! GRRRRRR! I'm like a freakin' tapering machine here! So this is day #6 (consecutive) on 6mg...hopefully things will even out this weekend so I don't feel like crap again and end up in my near-exorcist state again (haha Romeo!)... Anyways, I will write more later... Don't wanna get in trouble at work =-P CiR ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:18 am 2~5~11 ----------------------------------- Goodmorning! (not sure if anyone's still reading this...) Anyways, I tried the split dosing yesterday (4mg in the am and 2mg in the pm - like right before bed) and I feel ok right now. I think I will try that again today, since I was able to sleep a little bit more and I was less restless as well. Physically, I have mild WD's this morning, compared to the past few mornings. I feel like slightly uncomfortable but nothing intolerable. I think that's the important part; that it's all tolerable right now. And despite my crazed, PMSing mind, I am trying to stay positive and have a good attitude about not only my taper, but whatever BS is currently going on for me as well. Deciding that I'm not going to sit here and be defeated is definitely the way to go...For now lol... Mentally, I'm struggling with my relationship right now with my boyfriend, so I'm not sure what's going to happen there. Basically, I wish he was more supportive and less into himself and concerned more about me...He just wishes he could be "alone" all the time and I don't think he has the capacity to show empathy for another person. Seriously, and especially being someone who has completely tapered off of methadone in his lifetime, he should be the first person each day to ask me how I'm feeling... I don't think he wants to hear any complaining, and frankly I don't blame him, but at least he could be there for me... I plan on having "a talk" with him today. Basically, it's my way or the highway at this point! I don't have time to waste on people who are no good for me! I also see some shopping in my future... New clothes here I come! Since I've lost all the weight while tapering, I really do need new clothes for work. Literally, I was a size 14 in pants in the summer and yesterday I bought a 6! WOOOHOOO! GO ME!!! Thank you all for reading, and I hope to hear back from you soon... CiR ----------------------------------- junkie781 Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:29 am Re: 2~5~11 ----------------------------------- Mentally, I'm struggling with my relationship right now with my boyfriend, so I'm not sure what's going to happen there. Basically, I wish he was more supportive and less into himself and concerned more about me...He just wishes he could be "alone" all the time and I don't think he has the capacity to show empathy for another person. Seriously, and especially being someone who has completely tapered off of methadone in his lifetime, he should be the first person each day to ask me how I'm feeling... I don't think he wants to hear any complaining, and frankly I don't blame him, but at least he could be there for me... I plan on having "a talk" with him today. Basically, it's my way or the highway at this point! I don't have time to waste on people who are no good for me! CiR Good for you! I've been married for 10 years and my wife is a Goddess. Her support has been unwavering and even thinking about her gets me choked up. Don't settle for anything less than full support. You deserve it and that's what a true, honest, open and loving relationship is supposed to be like. I'm pulling for you. Hang tough, you're going to be OK ----------------------------------- Romeo Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:22 am ----------------------------------- Hi Miss Counselor Lady, I'm glad you're going to have that talk with your boyfriend. For me, it was so very important to have unconditional support from my wife. It helped me a great deal over the years. I hope you're able to open his eyes and I truly hope that you two work it out. It's GREAT to hear that you're finally feeling somewhat better. You took a pretty big step down, but you held on tight and I'm happy for you. Again, I love your never give up attitude. Now, if I could just get you to consider 5mg for your next dose instead of going to 4mg! :lol: Wow, that's quite a bit of weight loss, good for you! How wonderful does that make you feel? I wish I could share in your excitement to go clothes shopping, but I would honestly rather be attacked by a swarm of angry bees than go clothes shopping. Now, going shopping for chocolate and candy is another thing all together! Good job getting to 6mg and you sound like you're very close to stabilizing there. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:08 am ----------------------------------- I think the universe may be conspiring against me. Romeo, perhaps you are as well!!! I don't know how many other ways to say it!!! I have 8mg pills only. It's hard to break them so that you can have 7mg, 5mg, or 3mg. You need to have 1mg somewhere there! In the perfect world, I would have dropped from 8 to 7 to 6 to 5 to 4 - or even with half-mg steps in there, whatever. However, I had to jump from 8mg to 6mg due to this difficulty. Now, as I've said, I'm pretty sure I'm going to try and go to 4mg next. I've also said that this may be WAYYYYY to huge of a jump; but I won't know until I try it I guess...After posting this morning, I still have yet to take my 4mg (out of the total 6mg for today)...and I can feel it!!! I'm trying to hold off til noon though! KK!! Ttyl people!!! PS: I'm glad that most of you have supportive family and friends. I really don't and seriously, if my BF doesn't see that and is too busy to put in work to our relationship - it's freakin' OVER! I'm not about to sit around like an idiot when he doesn't care. Especially since we've only been together for like 5 or 6 months...DUMB!!!! Anyways, TTYL!!! CiR ----------------------------------- Romeo Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:22 pm ----------------------------------- HAHAHA, I was just teasing at you about the 5mg thing!! I actually remembered that you have 8mg pills and they are very difficult to break into a 5mg piece. It took me forever, but I now have it locked up there in my little noggin'. When you're ready, I think you'll do fine going from 6mg to 4mg. ----------------------------------- laddertipper Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:37 pm Hot mama! ----------------------------------- A size 6?! You go girl!!! That's crazy!!! I'm sorry this has been so hard!! Dang it, I was hoping that Day 5 would be the worst and all uphill from there. However, the most important thing is that you HELD ON!!! Doesn't it feel so good to see how much self-control you have? Splitting your dose should help a ton. I couldn't handle getting through the day if not for splitting my doses. You can even split them into 2, 2, and 2 and if you want to save time, you can powder them and they'll dissolve faster. By that, I mean powder them and put them onto a piece of folded paper and pour it under your tongue. I've read of people using the powder method to get down to 1 mg drops. For example, if you use a pill cutter to cut your eight into 2 mg pieces, you powder that. Then, you divide that pile of powder into two equal piles. It won't be perfect, but it's pretty accurate, and you save the other pile of powder for the next day. If I were you, I'd stay at 6 until you are 100% perfectly fine and have zero symptoms for several consecutive days and then I'd go to 5 and take 1 2-mg in the morning, 1 mg of powder in the middle of the day and then another 2-mg piece at night. Just a thought. You could also do the liquid method for to get 1 mg or you could alternate 1 day at 6 and 1 at 4 and then repeat. I just hate for other people to be sick, lol! I want to make it better. :D You are doing really well. Your PMS is probably making it waaaayyyy worse. We are all so very proud of you, girl!!! laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:29 am ----------------------------------- Ugh - Still at 6mg's today - split dosed for the second day. Got DUMPED by my loser BF which I guess was good anyways... Trying not to let it interfere with my taper plans. NOT GOING TO let it interfere... Feeling on today on split dose day #2. 6mg only. No more. no less... ----------------------------------- Romeo Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:46 am ----------------------------------- I'm sorry to hear about your BF, that's never fun. I hope you're OK. Keep your head up and keep moving forward CiR. I'm glad you're hanging in there at 6mg. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:44 am ----------------------------------- As evident by my last post, it seems nearly impossible to make sense when you've been DUMPED and it's 3am and you're delirious and in WD's... FML as they say... I am an emotional sack of crap right now. Day 7 at 6mg's - WOOHOO!! It's Super Bowl Sunday - if you could see my face it looks not interested and not impressed. Guys are so dumb! I could care less about the game but I used to like GB so I guess I'll silently root for them. Not betting on it - cuz I work too damn hard counseling people for the little money I do make. Just in case anyone was wondering, you can barely survive on counselor's pay unless you have a license and stuff and live anywhere but here... I have a feeling I'm going to eventually move away from New England - away from all the BS and idiots... But I suppose idiots are everywhere - there just happens to be a lot of them here. The newly-ex-boyfriend is a good example. When someone breaks up with you, you can't help but to feel like something is wrong with you...but really, I KNOW something was wrong with him, in fact, a lot of things. Two addicts are a disaster made in heaven I suppose... I feel so emotionally wrecked right now as it is; I did not need this shit yesterday... I know it hasn't been going good but who wouldn't even try to work on it. I guess he's just not interested in having a girlfriend who is 13 years younger and smarter and HOTTER...whatevvv... Ok, so I'm trying to stop talking about him. Luckily my best friend Jon is over. (We've been friends since we were like 10 or 11) We were talking about getting an apartment, which I think would be a good idea... I don't know...I'll shut up about all this crap! As far as tapering, today is day #8 on 6mg since I started last Sunday. I still feel MILD WD's that hopefully will soon pass. I wanted to take an extra Sub last night so bad, but I knew it was just "good old fashion cravings" as I heard from a poster a page or two ago... I went and god Jon and came home. We stayed up til like 4:30am laughing and BSing... Now we're sitting here BORED. I think the boredom and lonliness is going to be the hardest part as I continue my taper. I think my BF has been keeping my mind busy and focused on him for the past few months, and now it's going to be WAYYY different. We shall see. Time will tell. Thankfully I have you guys on here... Please don't stop PMing me you guys!! I really look forward to it like everyday now. Sorry if I haven't responded in the last day or so - I will, I just don't know what to say and I don't want to bring anyone down with my bitching and complaining... I seem to be good at that lol... Have fun watching football people! Or not if you're like me:) CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:31 pm Dumb 'Bleep'!! ----------------------------------- Hey, you want me to beat him up for you? I'll do it, but it will take me a while to get there, lol. I'm sorry to joke when you are feeling down. I'm glad you have your friend to be with you, because you don't need to be alone right now. What in the bloody hell is this guy thinking breaking up with someone so much younger and hotter and smarter than him?! I'm just giving you an advance warning. Get ready for the 'crawling back' thing. Hey, move out here by me to NV!! It's the boonies, but it's fun too. It's cold, but so is New England! I personally love it here in NV. CA is overrated. I'm SO PROUD of you for hanging in there. Whenever I look at your thread, I brace myself because I know you are going through a lot and it's hard to stick with a taper. To see that you are still at it is ....FANTASTIC!!! You are the woman!!!! Go CIR, go CIR!!!! Now give yourself a while to get really comfy. If you can, try typing a tapering journal to record your progress. Just list your daily dose and which day it is in your taper. Like yesterday, I wrote: Feb 5th: Day 100: 2 mg **Day 17 on 2**. Down beneath my list I write about what I'm feeling on the days I feel the need to write stuff. I love reading back through it and it's proof of my progress!! Yesterday, I was so thrilled to see I'd stuck with a taper for 100 whole days!!! I look forward to reading this after I'm all done with my taper. And a lot of times, I dump my feelings and fears and it makes them feel so much smaller. At this point, it's obvious to me that you are a strong and persistent person and I've got tons of faith in you. TONS! Maybe it's a blessing that you don't have a dude to focus on right now. Is there anything you'd want to start doing again that you haven't done in a while because that time has gone to him? What about reading? I know it sounds booooorrrrinnngg but it really helps because it takes up enough brain power to distract you if you aren't feeling the greatest. Keep going, sista! You just cleared a huge hurdle and you deserve a big huge congratulations and a big huge ((((HUG))). And by 'keep going', I don't mean drop anymore, lol. i mean just stick where you are and keep taking the 6 mg. Noooooo pressure! You've made huge progress already. laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:02 pm 2~6~11 ----------------------------------- Hey Ladder~ I can beat him up myself, unfortunately I still need to get my house key back...So I have to be civil for now. After that's in my hand, a swift kick to the nuts should suffice LOL...And don't appologize for joking, it's exactly what I need right now. Feeling WD's - Just took my other 2mg for the night....I would LOVE to go to NV!!! I want to go on vacation so bad; I haven't been in years. I really need to and as soon as my tax return comes in, in about a week and a half, I'm going to book a trip SOMEWHERE WARM without stupid SNOW hopefully:) AND OMG CONGRATS ON: Feb 5th: Day 100: 2 mg **Day 17 on 2**. And I LOVE your journal idea so I'm just incorporating it into my spreadsheet...Thank you for your support, seriously, I truly need you and Romeo right now like you wouldn't believe! I really appreciate all of the feedback you guys give me and I can't wait to check for new PMs and posts!!! Also, my friend also suggested now that I'm single I should be READING more lol - Can't hurt, right!? Thanks again - GTG to bed!!! <3 CiR BTW: Still at 6mg and getting easier!!!! Yayyy!!! ----------------------------------- laddertipper Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:31 pm anytime ----------------------------------- I'd consider myself lucky if I could ever say anything to brighten someone's day if it's not going well or to just make someone feel less alone during times like these. Tapering off Sub is NOT easy, but there are a lot of things we can learn from it and so many things that seem 'bad' but can be turned into good things if we just try to see the lesson or the meaning in them. Look at our diligence!! Look at how far we've come!! I was reading your original post again and it's truly amazing that you are as low as you are. You were at 24 milligrams in October!!!! Sheesh, girl!!! That's incredible!! It hasn't even been four months yet and you're down to one fourth of your original dose. Aren't you impressed with yourself? I hope you'll hang on at 6 until it gets ridiculously comfy. I know it can feel like you are wasting time, but it will make your next drop ten times easier. I feel like I'm at the point where I could maybe handle dropping to 1.75, but it would be terrible. If I just stay here at 2 for a while longer, that drop will be fine. I'm truly trying to believe in the patience that I'm preaching....but, dang it, I'm not a patient person!!! I don't know if this will make you feel better. To be honest, I've been having some HUGE fears about getting off Sub. I've been terrified that I'll never adjust to 2 mg and that perhaps it isn't even possible. I've been going crazy inside over all these worries. Today was tougher simply because I'm getting my kids strep throat so I have that nasty sick, drained feeling. Then, this afternoon, I started feeling SOOOOO peaceful!!! I don't really get this. Yes, I still am getting sick, but my w/d is truly letting up. And in addition to that, I am feeling so mentally wonderful. Content. Present. Aware. Interested. Alive. Positive. Just really, really good in a way I haven't felt in longer than I can remember. Maybe God knew I needed that so he smiled on me today, lol. I just don't know, but I really feel like this is all worth it and going to end up being a great thing in the end. I went through a mound of paperwork and felt so satisfied to get it done. I get glimpses of this happiness now and then and it really keeps me going through the crappy stuff. We will do this together!! And anytime you want to come to NV, just let me know. I'm not gonna lie and tell you it's warm, though. :D laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:18 pm 2/9/11 ----------------------------------- Hey All!! Well, at least "R" and "LT" lol - maybe the only people reading this thread anymore, but anyways, I'm still at 6mg. Hanging in there! I had my counseling group today and told my counselor and fellow group members all about this site and you two! They are glad I have such positive support with my taper. AND they were amazed that throughout the breakup on top of the WD's that I didn't go back up. They totally support me too and feel like I need to continue to taper and agree that my MD's a jerk sometimes! Anyways, just wanted to let ya'll know where I'm at! Hope you guys are well:) HUG HUG CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:07 am Wow! You are still at 6! ----------------------------------- I'm so dang proud of you. I really wasn't sure whether I should say "try to stay at 6" or not. You never know how bad off people are. I'm SO thrilled for you though that you hung in there and that you have that group to support you! I'm so flattered too that you told them about me and R. You pass through my mind during the day, and I wonder if you are really doing okay and if this is truly the best thing for you. IMO, from everything I've read, I believe you are absolutely ready for this. Even though going up a little wouldn't have been the end of the world by any means, it's always nice when you don't have to 'go backwards'. It can be discouraging. Instead, you just proved to yourself that you are indeed strong enough to weather the downs. Girl, I have so much faith in you!!!! You are gonna do this. Get nice and comfy at 6 mg if you can before you drop anymore!!! laddertipper ----------------------------------- Romeo Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:15 am ----------------------------------- Ditto to EVERYTHING Ladder Lady said!! Remember, this support thing goes both ways. You have helped me, just like I have helped you! I'm so proud of you for hanging in there at 6mg, especially with all the crapola you had to wade through. You're strength and determination to get to 6mg and stay there is awe inspiring!! Good Job Ma'am. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:13 pm 2~11~11 ----------------------------------- Feeling a little more stable where I'm at... I am still taking whichever half is bigger when I break them though lol... 6mg was too much to jump from 8mg and I know that now...Maybe not for some people, but undoubtedly for me! I was trying to keep focusing on the future, but thinking about the next jump and how it's going to go. I mean, obviously I can handle this one and it was tougher in the beginning, but today is already day #13 and I feel a HELL of a lot better than the first week... So, for all of you that are tapering, seriously, you CAN do this if you CHOOSE to! There's nothing stopping you but your own mind and if you're ready to do it and stable in your recovery, definitely heed the warnings, but freakin' go for it!!!! I know some people are going to need Subs for ever, and MAYBE I am one of those people, and I have considered that. However, staying at 24mg for 5 years, IMO, was like keeping myself in a coma... I feel so much better on less as far as actually FEELING and LIVING!!! It's amazing to me, seriously! So, maybe I will need them forever, especially for the pain management aspect. I don't think I've talked about that - I have a REALLY bad back and I have Plantar Fasciitis, which is a dibilitating chronic pain thing in your feet. Last winter, I was on a cane at work - the youngest one in the office and I'm hobbling on a cane. It was terrible and I have to wear orthotics in my sneakers, which screws me in the summer and for getting dressed up/ wearing heels, but anyways, since I've gone down, I can FEEL the pain more and it does suck, but it's totally worth it to me right now because the happiness and joy I get to actually experience now, when I get to, is freakin' awesome!!! Anyways, GTG to see my Sub MD - ugh - ttyl people!! CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:17 pm ----------------------------------- YAAAAYYYY! I'm SO happy that you hung in there!!!! Aren't you thrilled that you did not give up??! I also think it's so friggin' funny that so dang many of us drop from 8 to 6, for example, and we know it's too much to drop but we all have to figure it out for ourselves, lol. And then we turn around and warn the next group of people who won't listen to us, because they have to learn it for themselves, too, lol. I was on a high dose for a long time, too and I didn't realize how much less I was feeling. I'd say getting feelings back is both good and bad, but even the bad can be kinda nice to experience again, KWIM? It IS a big, HUGE surprise though...that's for sure!!! This is the part of tapering that has just blown me out of the water. I totally get where you are coming from with trying to figure out how Suboxone fits into your future and how you will be able to handle your pain issues on a low dose of Suboxone and whether you will need to take it forever, etc. It's confusing, but today you can celebrate because you sure have made huge progress toward your current goal. All we can do is make the best choice for the present, right? You obviously REALLY want this, and that's the key to successfully getting off Sub. Man, it takes a lot of drive and persistence. It has to come from inside you and you definitely have that fire inside your heart. I know that my pain tends to spike right after I taper and that used to scare me back up on my dose, but I didn't realize that was to be expected. It always ends up going away, so as it stands, I have no more fibro pain on 1/16 the dose that I was on to manage my pain (once I am stable), and I actually have fewer headaches. Go figure. I think the reduction of headaches may just be because I healed from my injury, but I cannot explain why I don't have more fibro pain at 1.75 than I did at 32. WTF??? All that said, 'that time of the month' is AWFUL now compared to when I was on a high dose of Sub. :wink: I got your back, girl!!!!! laddertipper ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:06 pm 2~14~11 ----------------------------------- Happy freakin' Valentine's Day. This is my first one being single in quite a few years. It's not that bad though. I have my mom and my best friend and also my 2 buddies on here! (Romeo & Laddertipper)...Thankfully!!! So I'm still at 6mg and feeling physically a lot better. However, my emotions are still out of control and apparently I'm being like a mega-bitch to everyone. It's not intentional, it just keeps happening. I found myself snapping at people a lot or being super extra nice. And the weird thing is, I recognize it, but I'm still unable to regulate and/or control the wicked crazy mood swings! Like I've mentioned, I continue to feel like a bi-polar maniac! I have been diagnosed when I was younger with severe depression. I haven't taken any meds for it in over 10 years, besides the apparent self-medicating I was doing while in active addiction. So, I had a really long weekend, had Friday and today off, but it's back to work bright and early tomorrow. I feel like a wreck and I think people at work are beginning to notice. This whole 2mg jump this last time was a big mistake! Hopefully I can figure out a good way to go down in smaller increments with the 8mg tablets. My doctor continues to warn that they will be gone soon and that the strips are taking over completely. I can see why, and I understand their BS reasons, but still... I think it's all financially fueled... Anyways, I will write more soon! Goodnight everyone!! CiR ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 pm 2~17~11 ----------------------------------- Hello All!!! DAY #19 on 6mg of Suboxone. I was just thinking about what a CrAzY journey that this has been thus far... I seriously don't know how I've ended up here, but I feel just about physically stable on the 6mg...Split dosing still: 4mg in the am and 2mg in the pm.... I think that March 1st I'm going to try and go down to 5mg, or else just take most of the 2mg piece... we shall see... I feel like I'm screwing myself over because everytime I break a new 8mg pill in half, I take the larger one. I mentioned this to another member here and they recall doing the same. I think it's that addict thinking, like "ooohhh yippie! one's a TEENSIE WEENSIE bit bigger! Sooo gonna eat that piece! muahahaha..." I know my brain still things that way, but it may be only child syndrome too, as I always remember not being good at sharing and when breaking a cookie in two, half for me and half for my grandmother, I'd always take the bigger one... I was a little porker too and did not need a half-a-cookie at all, nevermind the bigger one. Anyways, since the *break-up* I think I put back on about 5lbs. It's only been a couple weeks, almost, but it's still hard as hell and really lonely. I'm getting used to being alone more and trying to cope with it. My emotional rollercoaster has been winding down the past two days, I'd say, but I think other people may disagree lol... Anyways, hafta get up bright and early. I wanna figure out how to drop down but not by too much... ugh... wish I could just tell my MD and get the 2mg pills - Life would be so much easier! Seriously!!! I was also thinking about switching doctors, but I don't think that would be a good idea either. What a freakin' mess we make sometimes... Also, I haven't heard any feedback from like ANYONE in a while and I feel like this thread is dead and I'm the only one reading or writing on it lol... TALK TO ME PEOPLE! I NEED THE FEEDBACK AND SUPPORT! Thank you very much and GoodNite!! ^_^ CiR ----------------------------------- Lillyval Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:43 am ----------------------------------- Hey, I was just reading over your thread trying to catch up because I haven't had much time for the forum lately. It's funny, what you said in your last post was exactly what I was thinking you should do, i.e. staying at 6 mg for a good month or so. If you wait until March 1, that will be about a month. You were on 24 mg for something like 5 years, right? So now you're at 25% of that! That is a HUGE drop. I know you're anxious to get this done, but I would consider staying above 4mg for quite a while. Your body has a lot of adjustments to make, and it's probably better for that to happen while you're still safely above the ceiling. Does that make sense? Also, as much as I'd like to be a size 6 myself, that's a pretty dramatic weight loss for 6 mos. or so. Is it the nausea or diarrhea? (sorry). I know this is a thin loving society, but rapid weight loss can be a sign of being very sick. Do you see any other doctor besides the "boss". You're doing great - hang in there. Oh, and about your boyfriend, maybe he read the forum and was afraid you were dumping him! Don't think of it as getting dumped, he just did the dirty work so you didn't have to. Stay strong, Lilly ----------------------------------- Romeo Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:03 pm ----------------------------------- Hi CouNSeLoR iN ReCoVeRy LaDy, March 1st sounds like a good goal to me, especially seeing as you're pretty close to being stable here at 6mg. You used to share your cookies? Well, you're a better person that I. I used to hoard those things like they were going out of style! I remember busting my little brother in the lip when he tried to elbow in on my stash. Yeah, I got an ass whooping for that AND lost my stash!! :x I know the break-up was hard and being alone is hard too. You know we're with you though!! :D I sure hope you keep posting because your progress is sure to be an inspiration to many. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:22 pm 2~22~11 ----------------------------------- Hey All!! So, I'm still hanging in there at 6mg, despite a couple of days this past weekend where I chipped off mini pieces with my nail because I couldn't stop yawning and my eyes wouldn't stop watering, and I was like at work or out to dinner. I think my March 1st goal is BS and I will not be going down at all then. I'm going to wait. Obviously 6mg is not a stable dose for me. I just took my 4mg about an hour ago and I'm already yawning and plotting out when I can get that other 2mg in me... This is so ridiculous! I feel like this whole thing is messing with my head. I wish I had like a month off where I could just BE SICK and jump off right here. However, I've been advised by someone who had been there and done that, that it's not at all advisable. LoL!! It almost makes me think about the rapid detox thing that you have to go to like Michigan or somewhere for and pay like $10,000. It sounds worth it lol... Who knows... Not that I have $10K but still... Ugh! I feel a little more emotionally stable, but wicked irritable - I like want to kill my mother just for existing in the room with me because it seems like when I feel withdrawaly that her voice is like knives lolol...I wouldn't really hurt her or anything, I'm just trying to express that weird things have been going through my mind with this last jump - suicide, homocide, relapse, etc. They are just thoughts, I know, but they're freakin' me out bigtime!! As a counselor myself, I recognize that it's all due to the tapering, but it's freakin' nuts!!! I have even been isolating from friends, because I've been saying and doing things that are so out of character for me - UGH! Hopefully this will subside soon!!! ----------------------------------- Romeo Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:31 pm ----------------------------------- Having trouble stabilizing while tapering down a Suboxone dose is pretty normal. Lots and lots and lots of people have trouble during their taper, especially once they reach the 'ceiling'. Most agree the ceiling is around 4mg, but yours may certainly be around 6mg and this could be causing you additional problems. If you're not stable at 6mg, then I absolutely agree that your March 1st date to drop again is BS. Being highly irritable during the taper process is pretty common too. I have heard from several members, who are tapering or have tapered, that they were highly irritable as well. I'm going to be completely honest with you and tell you that isolating yourself from your friends scares me for you. Are these same friends part of your support system? If they are, I can only encourage you to not isolate yourself. Be open and honest with them, ask them to help you. I know it's hard as hell to ask for help sometimes, but it's worth it!! Are there other counselors where you work, could you possibly lean on them for help too? ----------------------------------- laddertipper Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:28 pm Sorry ----------------------------------- I'm so sorry you are struggling like this. I know it seriously SUCKS!!!! I agree with you. Your March 1st date is BS. You cannot do it. If there is one thing that people who want to taper successfully HAVE to understand is that it takes a massive amount of patience. It's frustrating how much patience it takes, but if you push yourself past the limits your body is clearly showing, you will fail. Take it from me, as I have done that too many times to count. You have to stop and give it however long it takes until you feel 100% fine at this dose. If you are still feeling yucky at 6 mg, I cannot even stress enough to you that you will be hating life if you drop down toward the ceiling. It's okay, though. You aren't stagnant, if you think about it. If you just stay where you are, and you let yourself get super duper comfy there, you will be setting yourself up for a much easier time of it later. I know a lot of people don't think it makes much difference to split up your dose, but to me, it makes a world of difference. When I'm not stable at a dose, I take it in many pieces. If I don't, I'm much more miserable. Can you take your 6 mg in 3 pieces of 2? Just a thought....and don't feel bad. There's no stop watch timing you. You have to go at the rate your body will allow you to. :) laddertipper ----------------------------------- anneparker Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:53 am ----------------------------------- Hi, i am new here and posting my first official post here. ----------------------------------- Lillyval Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:51 am ----------------------------------- Hi Anne and welcome! Because this is the end of a very long thread, you should post your intro as a new topic under Introductions, where people will see it . If you feel comfortable it would be good to say a few words about what brought you here, and whether you are currently on Sub. Thanks for posting, Lilly ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:49 pm 3~13~11 ----------------------------------- Hi Anne:) Thanks for posting and welcome!! So, I appologize to all my loyal readers for the lack of posts lately. It's been super crazy here! As for the taper, I just went crazy and jumped from 6mg to 4mg this past week. I think it's roughly day 5 or 6 on this 4mg (2mg in the am and 2mg before bed) and I feel ok. My stomach is a little ticked off as of this morning, but for some reason it was no where near as bad going from 6 to 4 as it was going from 8 to 6... why is that? what is wrong with me!?!?!?! there's got to be some crazy explaination for that - and yes people, I would love to hear why jumping 2mg was easier at a lower dose!? something to do with the whole ceiling thing you people talk about!?!?! tell me!!! And also, what is the whole ceiling thing - I did try to research this and haven't found very much! (links would be helpful if you don't feel like explaining) lol.. anyways, hope you all are doing well and just wanted to let everyone know, I'm still pushing along here!!! ~CiR~ ----------------------------------- laddertipper Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:43 am Here is why ----------------------------------- Here's why it was easier....it was easier just because. I'm serious, though. Sometimes, there's not rhyme or reason to tapering. I had the same thing. Some lower drops were easier than higher drops and it's a nice surprise, isn't it? My theory would be that you stayed at 6 mg for a good, long while, and so your body was very stable there. When you went to 4, you weren't paying for any previous drops. That's the beauty of giving yourself time to stabilize. That's why you are actually getting somewhere when you are staying put. Going from 6 mg to 4 mg is a pretty good size drop, too, so congratulations! I absolutely could not have dropped that much. I had to go down in more than 2 increments to get down from 6 to 4, but I kept on dropping and dropping and didn't give myself that time. You are doing great! You've come soooo far!! Aren't you pretty impressed with yourself? You sound upbeat, too. You sound like you are doing well. I'm really happy for you, girl!! laddertipper ----------------------------------- indigochild Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:09 am i've read ENOUGH ----------------------------------- I'm not reading all four pages ...the first page was enough LOL. I can see Don H blushing through the computor screen as he gives this "female" drug counciler advice. First, I sure wouldn't want you as my MMT councilor for the sheer stand you take on done. Done may hold some as long as you say but I barely make it 14 hours before the WDs start. Have you ever been thru full blown WDs and had months of clean time? Honestly, I never even could decipher your question. We are not your Dr. so think logically given your profession. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:20 pm ----------------------------------- Indigochild: I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. First of all, my "stand" on methadone has absolutely nothing to do with my counseling abilities, nevermind my suboxone treatment, nor my recovery in general. I'm not on methadone and never have been. I've seen it kill people and I've seen in save lives. I'm not here to discuss that though. Secondly, yes, I have been through 'full blown' withdrawals enough in my life to know what I'm talking about. And yes, I've had months and YEARS of clean time. Also, I never asked anyone medical advice. I've asked about other's experiences and received lots of feedback. I know you're not doctors. I am no doctor either and never claimed to be. I know what I do for my job and that's working with methadone patients. Not Suboxone. Not ever. So, asking clinical questions to you would be pointless. I have a doctor for that. I don't understand if you're just trying to piss me off, scare me away, or you're just in a mood. I don't know you and from the looks of your post, I'm good with that. Anyways, none of that matters. And I'm pretty sure I didn't even ask a question until a couple of pages ago. I was introducing myself. I'm not here to argue with anyone or be involved in any drama. I'm not here to piss anyone off or get on anyone's nerves. You don't want to read all four pages - doesn't matter to me. Not sure what the whole thing about "female" counselor means either. Yes, I'm a female, and yes I've been a counselor for years. Not weeks. Not months. Anyways... For the rest of you who still may care: I'm holding out at 4mg. Been having a roller coster ride here. Some days it feels like I didn't even take it - some days I feel over-medicated. I had some bloodwork done to see what the heck else could be wrong with me. We shall see. Hope you all are well - Romeo, Ladder - hope you're both hanging in there and doing ok! Sorry I haven't written much, just been super crazy for the past few weeks!! Take care all!! CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:56 pm ----------------------------------- Hey, CIR and thanks for checking in!!I've been wondering about you. You may be hitting a plateau and need to take a long break from tapering like me. It happens. You dropped very far, very fast. Indigo, I would respectfully love to know why you are so rude to people. I don't understand it. Why would you say things in a way that you know could hurt people's feelings? Why even bother responding if you just want to be nasty? You don't even know this person, yet you are okay with treating them with zero respect. Obviously you have something else going on and it comes out on here as negativity. There are lots of kind people on here, so I hope in the future, you'll just share what you are going through and give us a chance to help you out. We are supposed to be respectful on here to each other, so please follow those rules. It keeps it a better place for everyone. laddertipper ----------------------------------- Romeo Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:04 pm ----------------------------------- CiR, Well, are you ever a sight for sore eyes!! So good to hear from you again. CiR, how are you taking your med's, all at once or are you breaking it up throughout the day? Hey, 4mg is nothing to sneeze at, tapering is work and it takes time, no doubt about it. Again, good to hear from you again. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 pm 7~25~11 ----------------------------------- Hey guys! I know I've been MIA for the past few months. Things have been crazy to say the least! I'm down to about 3mg per day, give or take a few crumbs, and trying to go down to 2mg...Again, it's a pain in the butt breaking up the 8mg tablets...ugh! Especially with this humidity for some reason they seem a little more sticky/crumbly... Anyways, after my break-up back in February, I was down about 30lbs from Fall 2010 from all the tapering I believe...Now I've been sleeping a lot more and gained about 12lbs back. Yuk! So, I talked to my Dr. today and we discussed how it's going to go towards the end...He said it will probably be 2mg for 5 or more days, 1mg for 5 or more days, then NOTHING. This seems like a little harsh from what I've seen on this website, especially with those who are doing the liquid method or breaking it down to .25 and less and less! However, this is probably because he still thinks I'm on 24mg per day and doesn't want me thinking about low doses. I seriously wish I could just be like ok - here's the deal - I've been tapering like a mad woman and I'm on 3mg now so GET ME OUTTA HERE! Not sure what I'm going to tell him when and if I do ever get off completely. He wasn't very reassuring today. He basically said I have a 90% relapse chance if I ever do get off and basically told me that I should be on Subs forever, because "like a diabetic, you wouldn't take them off of their insulin"... Seriously!? I know I've said this to patients who are on methadone because it seems to be the thing to say for some reason, but it is NOT the same at all... A diabetic can like DIE or get really sick without their insulin - All I can think it that without Subs, I will be FREE and DONE with a chapter of my life that I'm not particularly proud of, but has taught me a great deal. Now, maybe my chances are slim, but dammit! I can do it! I figure, if I was able to stop using massive amounts of heroin several times per day after 5 years, then I can certainly stop these Subs. I guess I'm just looking from some encouragement at this point. I want to know that it IS possible and that I do have SOME chance to NOT relapse...Ugh! Thanks for listening and I hope all you guys are doing well:) CiR ----------------------------------- laddertipper Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:36 am Re: 7~25~11 ----------------------------------- Hey guys! I know I've been MIA for the past few months. Things have been crazy to say the least! I'm down to about 3mg per day, give or take a few crumbs, and trying to go down to 2mg...Again, it's a pain in the butt breaking up the 8mg tablets...ugh! Especially with this humidity for some reason they seem a little more sticky/crumbly... Anyways, after my break-up back in February, I was down about 30lbs from Fall 2010 from all the tapering I believe...Now I've been sleeping a lot more and gained about 12lbs back. Yuk! So, I talked to my Dr. today and we discussed how it's going to go towards the end...He said it will probably be 2mg for 5 or more days, 1mg for 5 or more days, then NOTHING. This seems like a little harsh from what I've seen on this website, especially with those who are doing the liquid method or breaking it down to .25 and less and less! However, this is probably because he still thinks I'm on 24mg per day and doesn't want me thinking about low doses. I seriously wish I could just be like ok - here's the deal - I've been tapering like a mad woman and I'm on 3mg now so GET ME OUTTA HERE! Not sure what I'm going to tell him when and if I do ever get off completely. He wasn't very reassuring today. He basically said I have a 90% relapse chance if I ever do get off and basically told me that I should be on Subs forever, because "like a diabetic, you wouldn't take them off of their insulin"... Seriously!? I know I've said this to patients who are on methadone because it seems to be the thing to say for some reason, but it is NOT the same at all... A diabetic can like DIE or get really sick without their insulin - All I can think it that without Subs, I will be FREE and DONE with a chapter of my life that I'm not particularly proud of, but has taught me a great deal. Now, maybe my chances are slim, but dammit! I can do it! I figure, if I was able to stop using massive amounts of heroin several times per day after 5 years, then I can certainly stop these Subs. I guess I'm just looking from some encouragement at this point. I want to know that it IS possible and that I do have SOME chance to NOT relapse...Ugh! Thanks for listening and I hope all you guys are doing well:) CiR Wow, your doctor still thinks you're on 24 mg, lol! His idea of 5 days on 2 and 1 and then nothing is.....quite fast. However, tapering low is hard too, so if you can do that, then I say GO FOR IT! Obviously, the worst that can happen is that you go back onto a smaller amount. I know opiate addiction has a very high relapse rate. However, even saying it has a 90 % relapse rate means there's a 10% success rate. If every opiate addict stays on Suboxone forever, then 10% of them are on it even though they could be successful without it. It takes a ton of discipline to taper down like you've done, and I do believe you have it in you to make good decisions. By that, I mean that you may be able to stay off opiates and Suboxone, and if you feel the cravings overwhelming you, you will be able to make a smart decision and go back onto Subs. Don't get psyched out by statistics, because the only person who knows whether it is working for you is going to be you. Your doctor doesn't know you better than you know yourself. Good luck! Are you going to be able to take any time off work for this rapid taper? laddertipper ----------------------------------- Ironic Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:33 am Re: I'm new here! Counselor in Recovery... ----------------------------------- Anyways, I've been on 24mg of methadone for five years. I want to taper so bad, I can't stop thinking about it. My Sub provider, who is also my PCP at this time, says, "NO NO NO" whenever I discuss tapering. Excuse me, but are you on methadone, or on Suboxone? I am confused. ----------------------------------- Joe S. Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:53 am Re: I'm new here! Counselor in Recovery... ----------------------------------- Hi, I'm new here. I have a couple of observations if anyone cares... 1.If you are on a computer, you are not in withdrawal. B. If you are spilling that much info out at one time, you are on something. III. Yes, I am on Suboxone and Cannibas. Doing great! just came by to see what others are doing. I actually feel at home here. BTW: She's on Suboxone. I recognize the tweakin'! ----------------------------------- Joe S. Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:30 am ----------------------------------- What they need to do is have the tablets the same size and color and shape with no markings. Only the doctor knows what he's giving you. Mind over matter every damn time I think about decreasing my dosage of anything. Give me a damned placebo & I'll bet it works. Just so I don't know... :D ----------------------------------- stephent Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:03 pm ----------------------------------- as a Drug and Alcohol counselor, you must be aware how high a relapse rate is when one suddenly stops using an opiate maintenance medicine. Take it very slowly and see how you feel. I started on 8 milligrams and am now on 4... I am going very very slowly. ----------------------------------- CounselorinRecovery Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:55 am If anyone cares or even read any of the last 4 pages... ----------------------------------- Update: 7/13/12. Ironic: Sorry, I work at a methadone program. I am on suboxone. I must have been typing fast and made an error. Joe S: 1. You can be experiencing withdrawal symptoms and be on a computer. I assure you. I'm sure I wasn't saying it was full-blown withdrawal. 2. I use no other substances. Whoever else: I'm now down to 1-1.5mg of Suboxone per day. It's been a long road. 24 to barely anything. I was able to get a few 2mg strips to cut up rather than dealing with the crumbling mess of tiny shard of the 8mg pills. I hope to be done this month or next month, but I understand this can drag out. My goal is to get off completely. Yes, I do understand the implications of quitting altogether. And to the others: if you don't like what I type on here, you are not obligated to read it, nor to reply to it. No one is twisting your arm. If anything, I have dedicated my life to helping others. It's been my career for many years now. Since my last set of posts: I bought a house. BOOYAH! ----------------------------------- Amy-Work In Progress Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:23 am ----------------------------------- Congratulations on buying a house! That's an awesome feeling the first time. Congratulations too on your progress! You've obviously been very careful to make sure that you don't taper prematurely. That takes a lot of perseverance. You are a good example to me because I'm tapering right now, and I tend to try to rush it. Btw, does your doctor still think you're on 24 mg? I hope you keep updating us! Amy ----------------------------------- database2 Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:00 am ----------------------------------- yes. but everyone's opiate tolerance is totally different. AND it's not 100% a molecular-bio thing. we have psychological tolerances that play into it too