Suboxone Forum

Re: NA and suboxone...

skidbro — Mon May 21, 2012 2:43 pm

Author: skidbro

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:43 pm

Wow, and thank you again . I have been so stressed about these meetings. I guess because finally I wanna actually use them in a positive progressive way. In the past I attended these places and never really quite grasped any of it. I guess its because I was only there cause I had to be there,and this time i search them for a actuall reason. So its all about new beginnings for me. You know ,when we mention how we all are different from each other and that being as we are different , we all recover in such different ways. What works for one may not work for another,and this is what I am finally getting . My counselor doesnt actually tell me the course I should take but he does kinda push towards a christian based thing not for the religious aspect but for what the meeting holds after the meeting is over.This is where he says I will benefit the most.. Well I am going to the next meeting both na, and the celebrate because untill I do I will just go nuts wondering what I should do. And then I will be able to make a more educated decision onj what is good for me..I will take romeos advice also, and just use what works for me.. I dont have to do what I feel doesnt work,but I need to at least try it first ..right? kinda like mikey and his dam cereal.. well thank you for all the input ..it has really been awesome ..and it has helped me to kinda shape what my recovery is to become. thank you very much

Re: NA and suboxone...

Romeo — Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 am

Author: Romeo

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 am

With NA, I realized pretty early on that you have to take what works for you and leave the rest. If the "higher power" aspect on NA is troubling you, then ignore that part. Myself, I had huge issues with the step work, I found a lot of the questions to be rather stupid, so I quit doing them. Also, I found the whole notion of sponsorship didn't quite agree with me, so I didn't participate in that aspect of the program either.

Step work and sponsorship are two of the most basic tenets of NA, but I ignored them both, yet I still learned a shit-ton of information about recovery in the rooms.

NA does have a lot to offer, I learned a lot from my time in NA, but I also learned, contrary to their belief, that NA is NOT a perfect program (I honestly can't believe some of them actually believe that NA is perfect....what a hoot!!). So again, take what works for you and leave the rest.

Re: NA and suboxone...

hatmaker510 — Mon May 21, 2012 7:35 am

Author: hatmaker510

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:35 am

TJ, again, thanks for taking the time to write out that post. It's quite a thought-provoking perspective on the whole higher power thing. For example, how would a deist fit in with AA/NA's version of a higher power? It wouldn't, because a deist, although they believe in a higher power (a god), they don't believe that their god is involved in their daily life. This is why people say it's geared towards christianity as a whole and not other belief structures. But way too many people don't even know what deism is, much less what it means and that goes for other belief systems.

Much to think about....

Re: NA and suboxone...

tearj3rker — Mon May 21, 2012 12:02 am

Author: tearj3rker

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:02 am

The thing about NA that never worked with me was the fact you have to believe in some kinda interventionist higher power. People say "your higher power can be anything you like", but that isn't 100% true. Your higher power has to be able to protect you in some way, or act as some kinda barrier between you and your own destructive nature. Your higher power has to be willing to "take your will and give replace it with its own" ... So basically you gotta be able to interact with your higher power on a daily basis, and it has to be able to answer your prayers on some way...

So the idea that the universe or the unknown can be an appropriate higher power doesn't really fit, because the universe can't take your will and replace it with its own. Instead a higher power has to act as some kinda giant hoover in the sky that can suck up all the bad bits in us and replace it with good (because we are all inherinetly flawed destructive addicts - a really life affirming view of humanity that reeks of Catholicism).

I have my own spiritual beliefs, and I guess you could call it a "higher power". But there's no way my higher power would want to intervene or give me any kinda special attention. They say "self obsession" is the bane of the addict, yet they encourage everyone to have their own unique special higher power devoted to their well-being. Sounds a bit self-obsessed... Then they encourage people to talk about themselves to a room fulla people for 15 minutes. I remember some of the older-cleaner apparently healthy members how they'd get resentful if they didn't get asked to share. Talk about self-obsession.

One thing that NA/AA has in common with all cults is it claims to offer an explanation for why each of us feels somehow different from everyone else. The 12-steps explains it by claiming that we are all addicts, we were born addicts, we are somehow inherently different hence why we felt like a "square peg in a round box" all our lives, and that is why we're attracted to drugs. Basically there are "addicts" and there are normal people, and the addicts feel different. Scientology explains it with the idea of Engrams - that people who seek answers or are dissatisfied have some kinda unique mental pain planted by Thetans, or spirits of the victims of Xenu the badass dude who took over the universe and planted H-Bombs under volcanoes. Access Consciousness (a relatively new cult spreading among lonely middle-aged pseudo-spiritual middle-classed women where waving fingers around people's bodies can cure all ailments) claims that people who feel different to others, or more sensitive souls, are actually special "X-men or X-Women", and who are actually the most gifted of people and can see things the normal people can't.

So when people finally figure out why they've felt different all their lives, wow it can be such a relief. But the reality is that EVERY HUMAN feels different. It's actually normal and human to question such things through their lives. Ask anyone in the street if they've ever "felt different from everyone else", I guarantee if they are honest they will say yes. We are all different and unique from each other, because each of us sees the world through our own unique values, experiences and make-up. Nobody else experiences the world as we do.

celebrate recovery ?????

skidbro — Sun May 20, 2012 10:11 am

Author: skidbro

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:11 am

I like cookies and stuff, just not all the higher power bull jive.please dont get me wrong,I am a avid believer, just dont think i need to mix it up with my addiction.I guess I feel that I am not In need of it in that degree. The counselor I see every month when getting my new script is always like asking if we (my wife and I ) have gone and attended the meetings yet. And we have mentioned it to the counselor that over the years of us having our addictions we have done the meetings both on our own and court ordered,and we just dont like them. we feel that ,from experiance ,that a majority of them at the meetings are there cause they gotta be. and in our little town we know just about everyone at the meetings. Its kinda turned into a court ordered hangout for high ons and even though people may be getting help out of these meetings .we feel we would not.so we explained this to our counselor and he recomended celebrate recovery.which if i get you right ,is the same, except its jesus being the higher power and nothing else.. well it looks like we just gonna have to bite the bullet and do it for the sake of making the counselor happy or finding something else that will suffice..I have been hearing of meetings here on the forum.. I am gonna dig around and see if perhaps this approach will make him happy.I am not knocking the meetings,just from past experiance dont feel they are for us

Re: NA and suboxone...

tearj3rker — Sun May 20, 2012 12:42 am

Author: tearj3rker

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:42 am

Celebrate Recovery is like AA/NA, except it's all about Jesus, none of this higher-power blaspheme stuff. It's JESUS OR NOTHING.

But apparently they do have good cookies and stuff.

Re: NA and suboxone...

skidbro — Sat May 19, 2012 7:08 pm

Author: skidbro

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:08 pm

still on the same subject but kinda different...has anyone heard of celebrate recovery,is it like na? is it better? been really wanting to try a meeting ,but i know from past experiances that i wont like them..so i have been dragging my feet. Its just that these meetings are kinda part of the rules of the program i am on. I gotta get some type of outside meeting thing goin on. and i do feel that i am no longer desperate feeling enough to need the meetings . the medicine has cured that in me ,I keep feeling that I need meetings though to add the final ingrediant to my recovery plan to one day finally be completly clean, and then as i say this i feel it isnt me saying this but the rules of the program telling me how and what i need ..to be honest i am doin great and feeling fine this meeting thing is really stressing me out . anyone know anything about celebrate recovery..sorry i seem so confused..lol damm meeting gonna end up, being a trigger lol

Re: NA and suboxone...

tearj3rker — Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:30 pm

Author: tearj3rker

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:30 pm

When I attended NA, I felt there was a bit of an unspoken disdain for drug-replacement. Definitely the majority of people in NA don't consider people on Suboxone to be clean. Because of this, many people on Suboxone who attend NA meetings often feel the need to "rush" their taper, so they can finally feel "part-of".

I remember clearly going to an NA meeting where this girl who was about 9 months clean. She must have been 18 years old. Her drug of choice was marijuana. And she devoted half her 20 minute share on those "poor people on drug replacement. My heart just reaches out to you and how hard it must be to still be stuck in that cycle of addiction"...

All I could think to myself was... "go out and get a real habit b*tch!"

Re: NA and suboxone...

Ironic — Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:51 pm

Author: Ironic

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:51 pm

suboxdoc wrote:

Such a tough topic... the steps saved my life twice, so I certainly have respect for the message. I have two problems, though, with NA and AA in regard to opiate dependence. The first is that if you look at the numbers, getting and staying clean from AA or NA is a rare phenomenon. Very rare. Yes, it does occur-- but the typical experience is repeated episodes of sobriety and using. A major problem with opiates is the fatal nature of opiate dependence-- really 'getting' recovery often requires some sort of horrible rock bottom experience, and with opiates, people often die before that happens (or during the rock bottom experience). Trying to get an opiate addict to 'get it' through the steps by dragging him to meetings or forcing treatment is almost always a waste of time; success rates for forced residential treatment are very low. For a lucky 5-10%, it is a fabulous way to go. But now that we have an epidemic, a 90% failure rate just doesn't cut it-- it leaves too many dead bodies behind.

Next point... I see people at Nova, a residential center where I am medical director where they dislike Suboxone and never use it, and I see people in my office on Suboxone. I see NO evidence that the 'quality of sobriety' is better in the 'step' people. No evidence at all. To be honest, if I had to say which group tends to be employed, to have improving relationships, to be building self-esteem, and to stay on a positive path , I would pick the buprenorphine group. Sorry, but that is how I see it-- and I was/am a 'step recovery' person. I expected to see a dry drunk phenomenon, but that is not the case-- not at all.

Finally, I am not big on forcing NA or AA on people who take Suboxone. If they like the meetings, cool-- go, and keep your medical info to yourself. But in my experience, 'getting' the steps and getting clean that way requires changing one's personality, and that requires the addict to develop almost an obsession for NA or AA built from desperation-- and addicts on Suboxone quickly lose their desperation. So for those addicts, the meetings are more of an educational experience than they are for a person NOT on Suboxone, who must really 'give himself up' and adapt to the steps.

I am disappointed that any addict-- in or out of meetings-- would try to say one addict is somehow more 'clean' than the next. Isn't that what we call 'taking another person's inventory?'

No single person needs to say it. The NA World Service said it all.

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals' membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a 'member' and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
Abiding by our fellowship's suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.
We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.
Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

Re: NA and suboxone...

spike93333 — Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:47 am

Author: spike93333

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:47 am

i'm sorry na did not work for you? i havent heard that in a long time, I LOVE THE AA meetings i go, and everyone in Spokane, Washington is extremely acceptable of it.I practice rigorous honesty, and tell everyone i meet in aa that i'm on suboxone. no ones told me its wrong.

i met very good friends in AA. I do not like NA. Don't find it helpful. and if people talking about drugs bothers you, my opinion you should probably do the STEPS, so you don't have obsession in your mind. I'm working step 4 at the moment, and it feels good writting down my resentments.
With the whole thing about GOD, aa/na is not religious nor will they shove jesus, god down your throat it'sonly suggested by the big book, and members, i think of it as "WE can do, what i could not do for myself" thats my higher power, and it works for me, and works for most of my friends. Ive seen people come and go my treatment center it's SAD, they couldn't make it. my outpatient requires 4 group theorpys a week, and it's one of the most successful suboxone clinics in the country, we have thearpy, councilor's and sub doc's all in the same building. It's great most of the counclers i can relate to, they were addicts once themselves, and one of the doctors.

suboxone is great with meetings whatever you like best. becuase when it comes time to get off it, what are you going to do? isolate yourself at home? or get support from other addicts. I just turned 18, and was doing pain pills, 300-400mgs of OC a day. and whatever else i could get smoked alot of crack everyday to. Personally my lifes great, i had one slip of with coke, 18days ago. and felt guilty the instant i did it, and the next day whent right back to AA, i made it a lapse not a relapse. So far i have got back into school, looking for a job, and repairing relationships. Without aa i would be lost. sorry to hear if your local aa/na groups are not following traditions. one more thing, sorry for my rambling, you do relapse before you relapse. you'l stop taking suboxone, or stop going to meetings, return to old behaviors, and maybe the old friends to. I'm down to 8mgs a day. hopfully will be weaned off in 3months! have a great day, thanks for my 24.

Re: NA and suboxone...

moman — Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:52 am

Author: moman

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:52 am

Welcome to the forum! Have you tried other meetings or another fellowship?

Re: NA and suboxone...

hatmaker510 — Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:31 am

Author: hatmaker510

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:31 am

Hi canadian_grl and welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your story, unfortunately it's not all that rare. I want to offer my deepest sympathies on your loss. I cannot imagine how difficult that was for you. Maybe you can post an introduction and tell us more about yourself? I'm guessing because you're new to the forum that you're on suboxone now? How are you doing with it? Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and I hope to hear more from you.

Re: NA and suboxone...

canadian_grl — Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:35 am

Author: canadian_grl

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:35 am

I started out at a 30 day rehab and ended up in a daily regiment of NA meetings. they were alright for a couple months besides the occasional member sticking their nose into my personal life. My boyfriend and I went for a couple months almost every night. Then we both started to notice more and more of the regular members would repeat the same sob story and their same personal line of how NA saved their life and that it was THE ONLY WAY to stay clean. The more my boyfriend and i didnt follow their rules or advice the more the members began to interfere with our lives. We started to here gossip about us relapsing or that we were out drinking which none were true. The more we pulled away the more the group looked at us as if we had something to hide. As my boyfriend and I noticed these changes in what were suppose to be are friends the more we saw the cult or group think mentality of the older members. My boyfriend and I eventually did stop going and started to use again. After months of it being just him and I planning for our future he passed away from an accidental overdose I got a call. It was one of the senior members, I had not picked up my phone for anyone who called that day and she left a message. The next day I listened to the message and once again I was back in that room having someone who does not know how to manage their own life telling me what to do with mine. NA in my opinion is a bunch of people who like to hear themselves speak about things that they truly know nothing about. I wish that those people could have admitted that because there is no way that NA can work for everyone and all those new comers that they tell that to believe it. Then when NA dose not work for them they fell hopeless and were else are they going to go but back to what they know best, drugs!

Re: NA and suboxone...

sway — Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:58 pm

Author: sway

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:58 pm

I tried NA many times and I felt like I was working for it rather than it working for me.

Re: NA and suboxone...

suboxOWNED — Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:43 pm

Author: suboxOWNED

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:43 pm

I think your are probably on to something and correct about your assumtion (altho Im not doctor either haha). Its kind of like how someone with ADD or ADHD takes an amphetamine and feels leveled out and when someone without those disorders takes it they get sped up and feel high.