Suboxone Forum

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

SometimeIdiot — Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:26 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:26 pm

A month later and doing well. No PAWS, no cravings, etc., despite several stressors in my life. Don't know if this good fortune has anything to do with the way I used sub or is just plain luck. Either way, I feel very lucky.

Day to day the march goes on.

My thanks again to all who showed support here!

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

SometimeIdiot — Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Now on day 12 of no sub after having hit a wall when tapering from .50mg to .25mg. I stayed on .25mg for quite a while, extending the dosing cycle as time passed to every third day. Finally jumped and the only side effects now appear to be minor diarrhea and some difficulty getting to sleep (but good sleep once I do fall asleep). Other than that, feel pretty good.

Sub has been a real blessing, allowing me to go from a 1,000mg/day hydro habit for years to being truly opiate free in less than 120 days.

To those of you just starting your sub journey, can't emphasize enough the importance of educating yourself about sub, formulating a (flexible) plan for your dosing, and having goals in mind before induction. Also can't emphasize enough the value of good psychotherapy in order to understand the root causes of your addictive behavior(s). And please do consider the "Induction A B C" thread started by scruffy. He started a very important dialog for all users of suboxone, especially new users.

Finally, a million heartfelt thanks to all of you who supported me here. You made a profound difference in a very difficult period of my life. Thank you so much.

SI

UPDATE

SometimeIdiot — Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:28 am

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:28 am

Now down to .25mg a day in my taper. No problems doing it, except for 1-2 days of mild diarrhea within a few days of lowering my dose.

I feel so lucky and blessed right now. Four months ago I was taking 80-100 10mg Norcos a day, burning through cash like crazy, severely depressed, and not sure how I was going to extricate myself from the mess I was in. Today, I'm in the final stage of my sub use, and since my induction almost exactly two months ago (April 23), very rarely have I even thought about taking opiates, and experienced only a two-day period early in my sub use where I "chased" a high from the sub. I don't even wake up in the morning thinking about taking my sub dose. Usually I only think about it when I become conscious of my lack of energy, then I take the sub and usual get an energy boost soon thereafter.

I've been taking an anti-depressant for a month now, and think it's finally starting to have a therapeutic effect. This is the second day in a row that I would consider a good day overall in terms of my energy and attitude. Still a long way to go, but whenever I get impatient with my progress (usually daily ), I try to remind myself how far I've already traveled in just 4 months.

In the next 10-14 days, I will stop taking sub. Will I relapse after that? I don't know. Will the cravings come after that? I don't know. There is so much going on in my life right now, I know little about what will happen to me as time passes. But I do know these things: (1) I do not want to take opiates for the wrong reasons. (2) I will take sub if I can't cope with any cravings that come. (3) I will continue my psychotherapy for probably several more years as I come to grips with, and learn to truly understand, myself and the triggers for my depression and addictive behaviors.

As I've reflected on my experiences over the past four months, my two months on sub, and as I look forward to an opiate-free life in the near future, among other things I've asked myself this question: if I found a few Norcos in my house (unlikely, but possible, given how addicts often squirrel away their DOCs), would I take them or toss them? I don't know the answer to that question, but if I were laying odds, I'd have to admit the significant possibility that I'd take them. That scares the crap out of me, but it also reminds and motivates me to continue with my psychotherapy and pushing to "live right" -- to create healthy living habits that will reinforce healthy, non-addictive behaviors.

But still many miles to go and an incredible amount of work to do ...

To all of you who supported me in this thread and by PMs, a million thanks for your support. I can't adequately describe what it's meant to me or the depth of my gratitude.

Namaste,
SI

P.S. Thanks for your kind words and support, One Day. I'm glad that sharing my story has helped you in some way, and hope you are doing well in your journey.

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

One day ata Time — Tue May 22, 2012 5:11 am

Author: One day ata Time

Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:11 am

After reading thru your entire thread I can see allot of similarities to my Suboxone Journey, and also a few glaring differences too. I was on a Heavy use of 60mg/day Methadone for Pain Management, my Pain Doctor was an absolute idiot never would listen to my thoughts had no regard for what I wanted or thought of getting my perspective. So after about 2 years of this Medical Slavery I jumped ship and here I am on the Suboxone Journey with the rest of you. I too was so worried about Precipitated W/Ds because I didn't take the suggested time to start my Suboxone. I did taper own to the 30mg suggested Methadone useage before hand but that was Only for a few days. I too like You started Suboxone at a very Low Dose of 2mg, it did Nothing for me, 3 hours later I took another 2mg still nothing, the Methadone W/Ds started kicking in and I got worried so in the first 30 hours I screwed up and took 30mg of Suboxone. Finally I found that 16mg/day of Suboxone was the minimal to get me over the Hump of Methadone W/Ds. Methadone stays in your system forever so basically my only concern is How long will it take for the Methadone to get out. I would have Gladly traded one drug for another to get off of Methadone, it is a very insidious drug that IMHO should NEVER be administered. As there are so many other very useful drugs that do not have the serious side effects that |Methadone does. However; I can relate to you on many levels. Wanting to be drug free soon, to get on with my life, etc. You and I sound allot alike in that I am Very Impatient, I have a very hard time waiting in lines for food, events, etc. I want it and I want it NOW ! And all the other aspects of my ife are the same, even to the point where I expect things to happen right then and there. But with Suboxone I realize that it will take a while to taper down so that one day I can rather than Jump Ship again, just Dock that sucker and walk off and NOT Look Back. I honestly hope that You Too can look at Suboxone this way too. Your last few posts seemingly are going in that direction of NOT putting a time limit on your Journey. Continue to HANG in There, YOU have been an Inspiration to me since I found this Forum. Reading your thread and posts have helped me gain insight into Sub and what it can and Can't do. For instance here on My Day 6 I just had a bad case of RLS syndrome, it was awful but I attribute it to the Methadone acting up again, crawling it's way out of my lower extremities.
Keep Up the Good Fight my Friend, I know that one day when this has all past and Your Son is Older that he will Respect You so much for taking back your life so that You could be in his ike You and He both want and need. Right now, don't worry too much about being selfish but do the things that get you Clean, if it means being a little self centered from time to time then so be it. Thnxx for Sharing Your Story, it has helped me with my Story !

UPDATE

SometimeIdiot — Tue May 22, 2012 2:31 am

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:31 am

Well, back on the sub, 1.5 mg every other day. The w/d symptoms from the sub became too much to bear. Am now developing a 1 or 2 month taper plan with my doctor and psychologist. Oh well, I tried!

UPDATE on Cessation of Sub

SometimeIdiot — Wed May 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:58 pm

This is the 4th day that I haven’t used sub. Last night, I was feeling a little bit edgy, so I took a sleeping pill. Today I have been experiencing some mild anxiety and slightly elevated heart rate. I don't know if this is related to the psychology of going without my “safety net” of sub, or if these are mild withdrawal symptoms related to the cessation of sub. I will be discussing this with my doctor tomorrow. In the meantime, things are tolerable so I do not plan to take any sub at this time. If this is the maximum extent of the physical withdrawal symptoms that I will experience from stopping sub, then I will be able to endure these symptoms.

To scruffy

SometimeIdiot — Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 pm

^^^ I think my doctor is a very good one for me. As noted in the induction thread started by sooverthis, I spent some time calling around and interviewing doctors. Of the approximately 10 doctors I called, I managed to speak on the phone with half of them (the others wouldn’t return my calls or I was met with something like, “you’ll have to make an appointment and pay to see the doctor to discuss this” – goodbye to those docs!), and this doctor seemed like the right fit for me. I live in a large urban area, and found at least 30 sub doctors within a 15 mile radius of where I live or work, so I was fortunate in that respect. I realize that those who live in less populated areas will not have such a luxury of choice.

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

scruffy — Tue May 15, 2012 5:29 pm

Author: scruffy

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:29 pm

Your doctor sounds like a very good one. I do not have any specific times for physical dependence but I have never seen anything to suggest that any opiate escapes the higher dose/more time equation. They are different, but none escape the reality of longer used and more used equals more physical dependency.

Buprinorphine escapes the "high" associated with the full agonists, but has a very high "affinity" for the receptors, kicking most other drugs out if there is a contest. (thus, precipitated withdrawal).

I am probably not telling you anything you do not know.

I have just never seen any research on what "attraction" might mean for physical dependency.

It probably does mean something.

S

UPDATE -- OFF SUB NOW?

SometimeIdiot — Tue May 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Hi Folks:

An update. May 12 (Sat.) was the last day I took my 2mg sub dose. On Monday, I decided to skip my 2mg dose and see how it went. No problems, so I’m now on day 3 of no sub (all with my doctor’s blessing, I should add). So far, no real cravings and no w/d symptoms – I think the hydro is now out of my system.

Question: has anyone read any science which talks about how long it takes for physical dependence on sub to occur? If I can avoid using any more sub, then that means my total time on sub was less than three weeks and that I ingested less than about 80mg of sub total over that time period. Enough for physical addiction to grab me? Any thoughts?

Last night I was a bit restless in bed, but finally got to sleep after some tossing and turning, avoiding the need to take a benzo to sleep.

It's now day by day. If I feel cravings, I'll take 1mg (2mg if really needed) and go from there. Not kidding myself about the continued battle. Still doing serious therapy to turn my life around and reorient myself and my brain. Still pretty depressed, with a lack of energy and drive.

SI

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

Taurus — Wed May 09, 2012 8:28 am

Author: Taurus

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:28 am

SI - I don't think there is anything wrong with your plan for recovery. It sounds like you have thought this through quite a bit, and have good communication with your therapist. I'm glad that your depression has lifted some. I know the sub is the biggest factor in my depression being alleviated, but you brought up some interesting points.

Sub treatment has finally allowed me to feel some relief from all the anxiety and chaos that comes along with being in active addiction (seeking out the drug, worrying about running out, stressing on what I'm doing to my body, etc.). That in itself is a huge relief, and I'm sure a big part of why I have found myself less depressed. As a result of this, my relationships have improved as well, leaving me feeling more settled in general, which is another thing that I'm sure is contributing to my happier state of mind.

As long as your plan for recovery makes sense to you and your doctor, and it's keeping you out of active addiction, I think that's all that matters...since that is the whole point of all of this. Thanks for the update and glad to hear you are doing well!

UPDATE ...

SometimeIdiot — Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 am

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 am

[What, nobody liked my haiku? Okay, maybe I'm not a poet after all ... ]

Hey Folks,

Finally have a moment to do an update and respond to a few of your great, supportive posts. I’ll start by sounding like a broken record: I am very appreciative of all your support and advice!

I’m a couple days into my third week on sub. The past 5 days I’ve taken 2mg every other day and have been okay with that, some cravings, some discomfort, but nothing unbearable. I’m hoping that by the end of week 3, all the hydro and its metabolites will be gone from my body (I’m very skinny right now, nearly 25% under my ideal weight, an unfortunate byproduct of my drug abuse and depression, but on the plus side, have virtually no body fat for the hydro metabolites to hide in) and then the remnants of hydro w/d symptoms will be gone and I’ll only be dealing with future w/d issues for sub as I continue to taper.

I took slipper’s specific worries about sub underdosing and variable daily intake very seriously, and have closely and honestly consulted with my psychotherapist and now two addiction doctors about my sub use. In essence, they’ve all said “go for it!” and have given the green light for me to take as little sub as I can tolerate. Now that the physical hydro w/d symptoms should be in their final, weak stages, they’ve all agreed that it’s going to become a mental battle for me and that, as long as I’ve got my warm, fuzzy sub “blanket” within arm’s reach and there’s no hydro in the house or quickly available (all true in my case – I lied to my hydro supplier and said I had liver damage and can’t take hydro anymore), I should feel free to battle my addiction on those terms. So to slipper and the rest of you who have so kindly expressed concern, things look good and I’m not doing (and will not do) anything that hasn’t been blessed by my doctors.

I am taking this recovery very seriously, and like I said in an earlier post, am quite prepared to take as much sub and stay on it as long as needed. Simply put, if I am able, I want a 100% opiate-free life. As all of you know, bupe is an incredibly powerful narcotic, apparently between 25-40 times stronger than hydro. Yes, it’s difficult to make a firm comparison because of the different bio-equivalencies of bupe (“imperfect” molecule fit with the brain’s opiate receptors) and hydro (“perfect” fit ), but even when I was taking 4mg of sub per day, if we use the bottom end of the strength multiplier, that was roughly equivalent to ingesting ten 10/325 hydro pills, or 100mg of hydro – that’s a very strong daily opiate dose! Bottom line: given my psychological makeup, my therapist agrees that it’s important for me to struggle to be opiate free as part of my recovery plan, so that’s my goal. Time will tell. I am taking things day by day and making no assumptions about my future, other than planning to try hard every day in the future to continue to recover. I’m no warrior like VariTech and many others here. In fact, I’m pretty much a wimp. But I gather great strength from your experiences, struggles, victories, love and support (thanks again!!! ).

To Taurus – My depression has alleviated a bit, but I’m not sure if it’s the sub, a currently more civil relationship with my (ex)wife, or merely that because I’m on a firm course to regain a healthy life, I thus feel better about myself. Maybe it’s a combo of all three. My doc is ready to prescribe anti-d’s, but since I’ve experienced some depression relief, I’m not going to start them quite yet. My hope is to climb out of the depression with exercise, a drug-free, productive life, and a resolved domestic situation (either amicable divorce or reconciliation). My estranged wife has agreed to counseling, so that’s a plus.

To Romeo – As I hope you can see from my earlier comments, I am totally okay with using sub for however long it takes. It’s clear that in certain areas of my life, I know very little and need help from trained professionals, but I do know this: using sub is a far superior way of life than where I was even only a month ago! Couldn’t agree more with your observation that willpower alone is not enough to beat addiction. My therapist is very good, and he’s been spot-on with his predictions and analysis thus far, and has helped me a great deal already. Whether or not I successfully taper off sub, I will be seeing this guy for quite a while, and won’t stop until both he and I are absolutely confident that I’ve developed the tools, self-awareness, attitude and understanding to proceed with life, however long that takes, years if need be.

To slipper – I know you don’t expect a reply to your posts, but I want to thank you so much for your concern and compassion and tell you that I’ve accepted your comments completely in the spirit in which you made them, and know you care very much about my progress. In fact, it was you who prompted me to consult a second addiction doctor to make sure I was getting good medical advice, so I hope that convinces you that I took your comments very, very seriously. I am indeed an addict, and in a very relevant sense will always be. I accept that and will always have to accept that if I’m to avoid a relapse. I’m also aware of the higher relapse rates for short-term sub users, and seriously discussed this specific concern in detail with both addiction doctors and my therapist. I told all of them up front that I would happily take and stay on whatever sub dose they thought was best for me.

My posts are already long enough ( ), so I won’t repeat what I’ve already written. I just hope that, disagree or not, you can understand why I’m doing what I’m doing. Every addict is different, every addict is a unique individual with his/her own story, but one thing does seem universal for all of us who are deadly serious about our addictions – we all want to be free of full-agonist opiates. To sum it up, it just may be that I’m taking a somewhat unusual path towards that goal. At its first level of importance, the sub is doing exactly what I need it to do: keep me off hydro. Secondarily, by using a sub dose that doesn’t 100% relieve my cravings and hydro w/d symptoms, in my therapist’s opinion I am directly attacking the core, non-depression-related issue that led to my addiction: the belief that I could use/abuse hydro without adverse consequences. Such dangerous arrogance must be totally destroyed, and given my psychology and mental makeup, I must pound away on it every day, and for me the effective way to do that is to force myself to live with the consequences of my deluded conceit: to have to cope daily with cravings and physical discomfort (the now-waning hydro w/d symptoms). I don’t like experiencing cravings and discomfort, and being the wimp that I am, would far prefer to relieve all those feelings and symptoms. But it seems like a very low sub dose (considering the level of my DOC abuse) turns out to be the most therapeutic way to use sub.

Hope the foregoing makes sense. Even if you still disagree with my approach to recovery, I hope you will continue with your support. It means a lot to me!

To All – Thanks again for everything. It’s impossible to adequately convey what your support has meant to me.

In closing, a word about scruffy. I know some concerns were initially expressed about his sincerity with all his PMs to members, but IMHO he has nothing but the best of intentions for all of us who want to recover from addiction, and I think his thread about the ABCs of induction prompts a very important dialog about the intended use of sub at the time of induction and the need for the patient to be well informed in advance of inducting.

SI (aka Mr. Idiot)

A Haiku For Us

SometimeIdiot — Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:05 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:05 pm

I've also been trying to write some poetry to capture my feelings and experiences in my new journey. Some of it is very personal and not to be shared, but here is a haiku (in traditional 5-7-5 Japanese on sound units) that I wrote for us here on the forum. I hope it makes sense to you!

with feathers quite bright
we once soared thoughout our lives
now we are molting

Maybe Some Inspiration for You

SometimeIdiot — Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Author: SometimeIdiot

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Link

Hi all,

Music has always been an important part of my life. It can cover the full spectrum of human emotions, and like humans, it has the capacity to inspire and heal, as well as to hurt and do damage. It can be loving, or it can be hateful. Etc. I’ve been putting together playlists of music to help inspire me as I begin my journey of sobriety, to listen to as I work and relax. I’m not a big Sheryl Crow fan, but I’ve found the lyrics to this song to be very relevant to me at this stage in my life.

Music lyrics are so personal. I’ve never found the lyrics of any song to fit perfectly with me, my life situation, mood, etc. That’s why I’ve been writing my own music and lyrics lately. But some songs and lyrics have come really close to capturing how I’m feeling or what I’m experiencing. The lyrics to “I Shall Believe” probably only makes 100% sense to the person who wrote them. It’s obviously a deeply personal song. But when I shift the orientation of the lyrics and think of certain phrases therein as metaphors for my situation, then this song makes perfect sense to me and my current experience.

For me, this song is about the junkie in a person speaking to the “normal” person that junkie once was before being brought down by addiction. It’s a cry for help to one’s former self. It’s a hearfelt appeal from the junkie for self-forgiveness. “Lay your hands over me” and “No one heals me like you and you hold the key” is a recognition that healing must come from within, that no motivation to change is stronger or more compelling than the desire to change for one’s own sake. “That I only come home … When I'm so all alone” is an allusion to those all-to-fleeting, brief moments during the depths of addiction when the addict understands what he/she must do to get out of addiction (but of course is too weak, deluded, etc., to actually take proper action). “That not everything is gonna be the way you think it ought to be” is actually one of those rare instances where the junkie’s lucidity actually trumps the insight of the “normal” former person. The junkie is telling his/her old self that not all things can be controlled in life, that he/she must learn to accept such things and not turn to drugs to change them or cope with them. "Open the door and show me your face tonight" is the addict's expression of hope to see a glimpse of what a better life can be.

Maybe this song will have some meaning and inspiration to you. It’s a very sad song, but it’s also a song of hope – I Shall Believe.

Namaste,

SI

I Shall Believe

Come to me now
And lay your hands over me
Even if it's a lie
Say it will be alright
And I shall believe
I'm broken in two
And I know you're on to me
That I only come home
When I'm so all alone
But I do believe

That not everything is gonna be the way
You think it ought to be
It seems like every time I try to make it right
It all comes down on me
Please say honestly you won't give up on me
And I shall believe
And I shall believe

Open the door
And show me your face tonight
I know it's true
No one heals me like you
And you hold the key

Never again
would I turn away from you
I'm so heavy tonight
But your love is alright
And I do believe

That not everything is gonna be the way
You think it ought to be
It seems like every time I try to make it right
It all comes down on me
Please say honestly
You won't give up on me
And I shall believe
I shall believe
And I shall believe.

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

Taurus — Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:11 am

Author: Taurus

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:11 am

Sometime (I feel bad and cannot address you as 'idiot'...LOL) - I never used heroin, but I did have a year long addiction to crack, so yes, I understand what you mean about it's addictive qualities. Smoked it every single day for a year straight. It was definitely very different and messed me up worse mentally than any other drug I've done. I was always able to keep my mind pretty straight, get good grades, and do well at any job while on the other drugs. But man,,, crack is wack!! I quit cold turkey and thought I'd never get my mind back. The withdrawals, for me, were nothing like opiate withdrawal. There were some physical symptoms, but it was mostly mental.

Thanks for sharing more of your history. That's awesome that you wrote a book. I would never have the patience to sit down and focus on something for the length of time it takes to write an entire book.

Keep us posted on how you are doing. And you don't have to feel bad for droning on and on...a lot of us do that. You write as much as you need!

Re: On the Cusp of Sub Treatment to Help Get Clean

Romeo — Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:36 am

Author: Romeo

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:36 am

Thank God for the gift of complete and utter desperation because that's usually what it takes to get us addicts to see the light. Being broken is nothing to be ashamed of, now that you're broken, you have a golden opportunity to put yourself back together correctly and it sounds like that's what you're about to do.

My addiction spanned 26 years of everyday drug abuse. Started with weed, hash and LSD (about 8 years there), graduated to coke and crack (about 5 years there) and then I capped it off with 13 years of opiate abuse. 3 of those years were spent on Suboxone, then I quit that, made it 9.5 months on shear willpower and lapsed. Like you, I have willpower in spades. When I set my mind to something, you better get out of the way because come hell or high water, I'm gonna do it.....but willpower alone is not enough to beat addiction. That's why recovery is so important. Recovery is where we really learn how to live life without drugs.

It's wonderful to hear that you're working with a therapist. I worked with a therapist during my time on Suboxone too, except I didn't pay him near as much attention as I should have. I hope you really listen to your therapist and do the work suggested of you, it'll make your life easier in the long run.

Whatever you do, don't give up. Keep fighting to get YOU back and it will eventually happen.